From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 1 07:52:28 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:52:28 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] BERTEST In-Reply-To: <50d3ad760708052256i410743d6rf205c1f3c7f272d4@mail.gmail.com> References: <50d3ad760708052256i410743d6rf205c1f3c7f272d4@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071001065228.GA25234@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Aug 06, 2007 at 11:26:38AM +0530, Pramod yaduvanshi wrote: > When i run the bertest on my machine i am getting this error. I think > something wrong in the script of the file analyze .Has any one else > encountered this problem? > > [root at fedoramachine bertest-experimental]# ./analyze rx1.dat > ./analyze: line 4: R: command not found This is because you don't have GNU R installed. The page where this is described says you have to have GNU R installed. CL< > Postscript output was saved into rx1.ps > Converting Postscript to PDF...ERROR: /undefinedfilename in (rx1.ps) > Operand stack: > > Execution stack: > %interp_exit .runexec2 --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- 2 %stopped_push --nostringval-- --nostringval-- > --nostringval-- false 1 %stopped_push > Dictionary stack: > --dict:1119/1686(ro)(G)-- --dict:0/20(G)-- --dict:80/200(L)-- > Current allocation mode is local > Last OS error: 2 > ESP Ghostscript 815.02: Unrecoverable error, exit code 1 > done. > PDF output was saved into rx1.pdf > > PK Yaduvanshi > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 1 07:57:48 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 1 Oct 2007 08:57:48 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] query about schematics In-Reply-To: <392193.99619.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <20070928082514.GA13302@kestrel.barix.local> <392193.99619.qm@web44905.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <20071001065748.GA2001@kestrel.barix.local> On Sun, Sep 30, 2007 at 12:18:26AM -0700, Saad Shakeel wrote: > Thank you very much Gyorko, Karel and Jakub for your responses... reallly appreciate it ! > > So it seems that LEDs will be the hardest to secure.... how about i use a I don't know if Ondrej Tesar still sends these LEDs by post - in the past he did it. > laser instead?? and i still can't understand the use of AUI forte?? will i No unfortunately the current Ronja design doesn't support laser. > still need it if i use the Twister 2 design? No you don't need AUI Forte with Twister2. AUI Forte goes instead of Twister2 if you have a very old network card with an interface called AUI. > similarly the three colored LEDs, red, yellow and green are for status only > right and not for transmitter? what color are we to use for transmission? Yes they are status lights. The transmitter uses either red or infrared. > and about those retro reflectors... what are they?? how do they assist in They are the thing at the back of a car or a bicycle that doesn't shine but reflects light a lot. > aiming? are there any other guides to building a ronja other than the > site?? i've downloaded the PDFs on the site aswell, but not much technical No, we don't scatter the information around all the Internet to make it more difficult like for example the Linux project does ;-) All the information necessary is on ronja.twibright.com > info.. sorry if my questions seem a bit childish.. > and by the way about Jakubs message, i tried translating it, heres what i > got.. Jakub pointed out that Ronja Hertz could be optimized by throwing away the digital multiplexer inside. CL< > --------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ??au Shape : ) Cht??l jsem to ask within takovej splinter , while jsem > te?? started , about tom while to the Pakist??nskej student asked > whereupon them Hertz. J?? never Hertz nepot??eboval , accordingly jsem si > ud??lal country gener??tor out of cpld??ka plus the v??stupn?­ > frequency p??ep?­n?? s??m periodicky , however absconds me pro?? are > pou??il dv??ma p??ep?­na??i ovl??danej multiplex kdy?? t??mi > p??ep?­na??i ( either are two plus sta??il by solely one of nich two > ) to you ??ty??i sign??ly daj?­ p??ep?­nat norm??ln?? > mechanicky without multiplex. While t?? hereto vedlo? James > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks all. > > > > --------------------------------- > Catch up on fall's hot new shows on Yahoo! TV. Watch previews, get listings, and more! > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 3 20:11:47 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 3 Oct 2007 21:11:47 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RSSI RF filter patch In-Reply-To: <1200.1850-9585-194104426-1186498448@post.cz> References: <1200.1850-9585-194104426-1186498448@post.cz> Message-ID: <20071003191147.GA15333@kestrel.barix.local> Petr Seliger proposed and tried out an output filter for the RSSI. This patch prevents RF from a nearby transmitter to leak in, demodulate and influence the readout. It applies to 10M Receiver (Ronja Tetrapolis, Metropolis) and Inferno Receiver (Ronja Inferno). I have just added the patch to both devices, thanks Petr. CL< On Tue, Aug 07, 2007 at 04:54:08PM +0200, Petr Seliger wrote: > Zdar, > poresil jsem kolisani napeti na vystupu RSSI v prijimaci ,kdyz se vedle zapne > vysilacka. Problem je zpusoben tim, ze to co se naidukuje do dratu vedoucich > k multimetru se usmernuje na schottkyho diodach v RX. Jednoduse jsem tedy > pridal primitivni filtr na vystup, jak je nakresleno v prilozenem schematu. > Tlumivka je vhodna na feritovem jadre s indukcnosti kolem 1uH, spis mensi, > dulezita je vysoka hodnota vlastni rezonanacni frekvence SRF. Dobre jsou nad > cca 200MHz, to spolehlive vyfiltruje i PMR vysilacky v pasmu 435MHz. > Kondenzator z hmoty NPO a co nejkratsi nozicky. Po uprave jsem zkousel > antenu vysilacky prilozit primo na kablik a udaj kolisa max. o par mV. Pred > upravou klidne i stovky mV. > > Petr Seliger From clock at twibright.com Thu Oct 4 07:52:36 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:52:36 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] How to use gEDA with PCB Message-ID: <20071004065236.GA7651@kestrel.barix.local> I have noticed that the pcb.pdf which comes along with the gEDA PCB program now contains a section about how to integrate it with gEDA gschem - it describes how to set up directories and start drawing schematic and then how to convert it into PCB to make a board and also says something about forward annotation. It's in the doc/pcb.pdf, chapter 9 Schematic Capture for PCB. CL< From clock at twibright.com Thu Oct 4 09:52:38 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 10:52:38 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet Message-ID: <20071004085238.GA22158@kestrel.barix.local> I tried to design a Ronja leaflet: http://images.twibright.com/tns/2165.html Do you think it's good? CL< From kubajz at kbx.cz Thu Oct 4 14:14:07 2007 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Jakub Sykora) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 15:14:07 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <20071004085238.GA22158@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071004085238.GA22158@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <4704E71F.8010309@kbx.cz> What is this leaflet intended for? I think there is inappropriate quantum of colors used... K Karel Kulhavy wrote: > I tried to design a Ronja leaflet: > > http://images.twibright.com/tns/2165.html > > Do you think it's good? > > CL< > -- Jakub S?kora email: kubajz na kbx.cz <') ICQ: 68976632 ( =- mobil: +420 777 594 201 '' From clock at twibright.com Thu Oct 4 15:27:19 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 16:27:19 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <4704E71F.8010309@kbx.cz> References: <20071004085238.GA22158@kestrel.barix.local> <4704E71F.8010309@kbx.cz> Message-ID: <20071004142719.GB9730@kestrel.barix.local> On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 03:14:07PM +0200, Jakub Sykora wrote: > What is this leaflet intended for? I think there is inappropriate > quantum of colors used... For places visited by people who could be interested in Ronja, but don't know it exists. Like public metal workshops or gatherings of people who tinker with electronics. I see leaflets of other projects in these places. CL< > > K > > Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > I tried to design a Ronja leaflet: > > > > http://images.twibright.com/tns/2165.html > > > > Do you think it's good? > > > > CL< > > > > -- > Jakub S?kora > email: kubajz at kbx.cz <') > ICQ: 68976632 ( =- > mobil: +420 777 594 201 '' > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From hybrid.parameter at yahoo.com Thu Oct 4 16:14:38 2007 From: hybrid.parameter at yahoo.com (Saad Shakeel) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 08:14:38 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <20071004142719.GB9730@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <867494.58403.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> I think the idea is novel.... but a color combination thats a bit easier on the eyes might catch more attention..... and throw in a few pics of stylish RONJAS already made by people... and also the pic that shows Ronja at night... Karel Kulhavy wrote: On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 03:14:07PM +0200, Jakub Sykora wrote: > What is this leaflet intended for? I think there is inappropriate > quantum of colors used... For places visited by people who could be interested in Ronja, but don't know it exists. Like public metal workshops or gatherings of people who tinker with electronics. I see leaflets of other projects in these places. CL< > > K > > Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > I tried to design a Ronja leaflet: > > > > http://images.twibright.com/tns/2165.html > > > > Do you think it's good? > > > > CL< > > > > -- > Jakub S?kora > email: kubajz at kbx.cz <') > ICQ: 68976632 ( =- > mobil: +420 777 594 201 '' > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja --------------------------------- Yahoo! oneSearch: Finally, mobile search that gives answers, not web links. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20071004/22513b62/attachment.html From kubajz at kbx.cz Thu Oct 4 16:30:06 2007 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Jakub Sykora) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 17:30:06 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <20071004142719.GB9730@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071004085238.GA22158@kestrel.barix.local> <4704E71F.8010309@kbx.cz> <20071004142719.GB9730@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <470506FE.7030303@kbx.cz> I tink this type of leaflet will pay attention, but the newbie will not know what is it about. If I didn't know, what Ronja is, I would never realize what this leaflet is all about. I would prefer the falcon logo appearing and a picture of Tetrapolis head with "laser" beam... And some text like DIY optical comunication or vv. K Karel Kulhavy wrote: > On Thu, Oct 04, 2007 at 03:14:07PM +0200, Jakub Sykora wrote: >> What is this leaflet intended for? I think there is inappropriate >> quantum of colors used... > > For places visited by people who could be interested in Ronja, but don't know > it exists. Like public metal workshops or gatherings of people who tinker with > electronics. I see leaflets of other projects in these places. > > CL< > >> K >> >> Karel Kulhavy wrote: >>> I tried to design a Ronja leaflet: >>> >>> http://images.twibright.com/tns/2165.html >>> >>> Do you think it's good? >>> >>> CL< >>> >> -- >> Jakub S?kora >> email: kubajz na kbx.cz <') >> ICQ: 68976632 ( =- >> mobil: +420 777 594 201 '' >> >> -- >> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> Ronja na lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > -- Jakub S?kora email: kubajz na kbx.cz <') ICQ: 68976632 ( =- mobil: +420 777 594 201 '' From anmic at fmg.sk Thu Oct 4 21:39:31 2007 From: anmic at fmg.sk (Jan Matyas) Date: Thu, 04 Oct 2007 22:39:31 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <867494.58403.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> References: <867494.58403.qm@web44914.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> Message-ID: <47054F83.60602@fmg.sk> Saad Shakeel napsal(a): > I think the idea is novel.... but a color combination thats a bit easier > on the eyes might catch more attention..... and throw in a few pics of > stylish RONJAS already made by people... and also the pic that shows > Ronja at night... I've just found a very nice photo - its color palette might be a good inspiration for the Ronja leaflet: http://www.digineff.cz/galerie/showphoto.php?photo=108749&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=516 Regards, Jan Matyas From hybrid.parameter at yahoo.com Fri Oct 5 05:31:22 2007 From: hybrid.parameter at yahoo.com (Saad Shakeel) Date: Thu, 4 Oct 2007 21:31:22 -0700 (PDT) Subject: [Ronja] Ronja leaflet In-Reply-To: <47054F83.60602@fmg.sk> Message-ID: <387975.57789.qm@web44913.mail.sp1.yahoo.com> really nice picture... if any one is good at Photoshop, they might try to replace the power line with a ronja. and include a laser beam as Jakub Syorka said, And remeber, the beauty of a Ronja lies in its EYES(lens) and EYE LASHES (hood) Truly, Saad Jan Matyas wrote: I've just found a very nice photo - its color palette might be a good inspiration for the Ronja leaflet: http://www.digineff.cz/galerie/showphoto.php?photo=108749&size=big&password=&sort=1&cat=516 Regards, Jan Matyas -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja --------------------------------- Don't let your dream ride pass you by. Make it a reality with Yahoo! Autos. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20071004/1fd1ff22/attachment.html From clock at twibright.com Sat Oct 6 20:18:42 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sat, 6 Oct 2007 21:18:42 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] NEED YOUR HELP In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071006191842.GA5045@kestrel.barix.local> On Sat, Oct 06, 2007 at 09:36:11AM +0530, Rahul Tyagi wrote: > I AM IMPLEMENTING THIS PROJECT OF YOUR'S FOR OUT R ENGINEERING FINASL > YEAR PROJECT SO I > > WOULD LIKE TO HAVE HAVE SOME INFORMATION ONTHE BASIC WORKING AND > UNDERLYING PRINCIPLES OF TIS FINE PROJRCT THAT U ALL HAVE > > DEVELOPED AND ALSO THE INSTALLATION AND WORKING PROCEDURE FOR THE > WINDOWS ENVIRONMENT How it works (incomplete information): http://ronja.twibright.com/technotes/how.php Testing procedures - there are no specific procedures for Windows, but OS requirements which Windows can meet are listed: http://ronja.twibright.com/testing/ CL< > > > > > > -- > RAHUL TYAGI > NOIDA From dpolak at gmx.ch Mon Oct 8 10:11:44 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 11:11:44 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RX Schematic Message-ID: <20071008091144.276410@gmx.net> On the Partlist for the RX device there's a Capacitor C179 listed which I can't find on the schematic. Also there something wrong with C177 and C178. The values written in the schematic are not equal to the values from the partlist. C175 is listed as a 1N capacitor but on the schematic the value is 10N? -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 8 18:26:29 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 19:26:29 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RX Schematic In-Reply-To: <20071008091144.276410@gmx.net> References: <20071008091144.276410@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071008172629.GA14147@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 08, 2007 at 11:11:44AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > On the Partlist for the RX device there's a Capacitor C179 listed which I > can't find on the schematic. Also there something wrong with C177 and C178. > The values written in the schematic are not equal to the values from the > partlist. C175 is listed as a 1N capacitor but on the schematic the value is > 10N? I was adding the RSSI filter from Petr Seliger. Either I left the website in an inconsistent state for a while or you are using an old partlist and new schematic. I'll rsync the website from my home computer to the website soon and then please check the building guide again it should be OK. CL< > > -- > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 8 21:10:31 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 22:10:31 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] [turner@ussc.com: [Laser] 173 mile optical 2-way QSO completed] Message-ID: <20071008201031.GA9582@kestrel.barix.local> 278.56km without a laser... CL< ----- Forwarded message from "C. Turner" ----- Date: Mon, 08 Oct 2007 13:53:31 -0600 From: "C. Turner" To: laser at mailman.qth.net Subject: [Laser] 173 mile optical 2-way QSO completed User-Agent: Mozilla/5.0 (Windows; U; Windows NT 5.1; en-US; rv:1.8.1.6) Gecko/20070802 SeaMonkey/1.1.4 Hello, On the night October 3, 2007, two groups here in Utah were able to complete an electronic 2-way optical QSO over a path that, according to the RadioMobile program, was 278.56km (173.1 miles) in length. The north-to-south bearing was 177.1 degrees true, with the southern end of the path being a site on a ridge just below Swasey Peak in the House Range, west of Delta, Utah, to the northern site in the Raft River range in northwestern Utah, south of Standrod, Utah, just south of the Idaho border. The elevation of both locations was just a hair under 2865 meters ASL (9400 feet.) While it was possible to drive to the north site using 4-wheel drive and tire chains to combat mud and snow, it was required that the party attaining the southern site hike in from the vehicle: Their path required route-finding on rugged terrain, several kilometers of hiking, and quite a bit of elevation gain - not to mention a return path in darkness while fighting a fierce wind. This optical path crosses some of the flattest land on Earth - the Utah Salt flats. There was also zero light pollution, owing to the fact that the majority of the path crossed over an uninhabited military reservation. On the south end near Swasey Peak, the party was lead by Ron K7RJ with Gordon K7HFV and Brett, N7KG. On the north end near George Peak was Clint, KA7OEI, solo. Air conditions on this occasion were not particularly good: Owing to winds preceding a cold front, a fair amount of dust had been kicked into the air, causing significant decrease in visibility, but the winds may have helped in maximizing thermal homogeneity of the air between our two sites, reducing the amount of scintillation: Preliminary analysis of scintillation shows it to be much less than that experienced during previous 15 and 107 mile experiments. A two-way MCW exchange was completed fairly easily, followed by the successful reception of a voice report at the south end - but it was noted that the link margin in the north-to-south direction was a few dB better than the south-to-north direction, making the reception south-to-north voice report somewhat "iffy" - the voice was detectable, but copy was extremely marginal. Also transmitted in both directions were test tone - to provide later analysis of scintillation, and several SSTV images were transmitted from north-to-south. All exchanges were recorded live in a lossless .WAV format to identical digital audio recorders. For both ends, the transmitting gear was similar, the optics based on work done by the Australian optical group: The transceivers used separate large Fresnel lenses for transmit and receive. On the north end, a pair of 430x404mm lenses were used while the south end used a pair of 318x250mm lenses. On both ends, current-modulated 3-watt red Luxeon LEDs were used for transmit, while both receivers used a reverse-biased BPW34 PIN photodiode with a cascode amplifier using a saturated JFET as the input stage. The reason for the link margin disparity between the north and south ends is currently unknown. At least a portion of this may be attributed to the fact that it is known that the transmitter used at the north end has a couple dB higher optical flux output - a fact attributed to the fact that the secondary lens was a custom-ground aspherical lens that was designed to provide better illumination of the Fresnel lens. It is also suspected that the receiver used on the north end may be deficient by just a couple of dB: Even though the designs are identical, it is possible that the difference is related to normal component variation. During this event, at no time were the lights from the opposite ends ever visible with the naked eye: We spent several hours trying to acquire the signal, but just before we were about to give up, I was finally able to spot an the extremely dim red light from the south end using an 8" telescope: Using electronic pointing aids (e.g. an "audible S-meter" system) we were able to acquire each others signals. Eventually, Brett (at the south end) was able to spot the light from the north end using a very large set of binoculars. After our MCW, voice, and SSTV transmissions, we attempted to acquire signals from the Lasers: Using the electronic pointing aid, this was a trivial task during a test over a 172km (107 mile) path a month earlier when using both the 8" reflector telescope (which was already aimed directly at the far end, requiring only a minor tweaking of the telescope's vernier to maximize the signal once the eyepiece was replaced with the emitter) and again with a Laser pointer attached to the telescope's sighting-scope mount. On this (the 10/3) occasion, however, the Laser signal could not be acquired at the south end: A attempt was also made to acquire a Laser signal at the north end that was transmitted from the south end, but this, too, was unsuccessful. It is expected that were the air conditions better (e.g. less airborne dust) that 2-way voice communications would have been easy and that acquisition of the Laser signals in both directions would also have been possible. In comparison, a 2-way optical voice and SSTV contact had been completed over a 107 mile path exactly a month earlier, on September 3. On this occasion, S/N of over 20 dB was noted using the exact same equipment. Also on this occasion, experiments were done using coherent light (diode Lasers) - both using a beam collimated using an 8" reflector telescope and an "uncollimated" beam using just a standard $3 Laser pointer. On this occasion, while voice communications was easily accomplished using all three transmission methods, it was noted that the coherent light transmissions suffered severely from scintillation, with troughs dropping well below the measurable level - with the scintillation experienced on the beam emitted by the 8" telescope having a notably lower rate of scintillation with fewer instances of extreme fading. It was also noted that the amplitude peaks of the coherent light (during brief instances of constructive interference) were higher than those of the noncoherent light, but that the average level was significantly lower. At present, pictures and written accounts of the event are still being gathered and analysis of the recordings is only in a preliminary stage. 73, Clint KA7OEI _______________________________________________ Laser mailing list Laser at mailman.qth.net http://mailman.qth.net/mailman/listinfo/laser ----- End forwarded message ----- From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 8 22:32:51 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 8 Oct 2007 23:32:51 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Mangled TX LED soldering description Message-ID: <20071008213250.GA31898@kestrel.barix.local> I finally fixed the mangled description how to solder down the PCB TX LED. It should appear on the website after make rsync finished (=long, because the videos have been recompiled). CL< From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 10 08:13:05 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 09:13:05 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Increased holes in C18 Message-ID: <20071010071305.GA28284@kestrel.barix.local> Someone reported he tried to replace C18 in the transmitter with a physically bigger capacitor and that he had a problem with the lead thickness. I have increased the hole diameter by 0.2mm. I also had to change the structure of the files since the PCB was upgraded since that time. CL< From dpolak at gmx.ch Wed Oct 10 11:01:48 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 12:01:48 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Range Reduction Message-ID: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> How important is the range reduction to let's say make ronja work on a distance of 5m? What's technical difference when you do the range reduction? -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 10 14:30:44 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 15:30:44 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Range Reduction In-Reply-To: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> References: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071010133044.GA12896@kestrel.barix.local> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 12:01:48PM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > How important is the range reduction to let's say make ronja work on a > distance of 5m? What's technical difference when you do the range reduction? It is important. It reduces the sensitivity of the receiver. If you run a stock Ronja on this distance it won't probably work since the receiver will be overwhelmed by the signal. CL< > > > -- > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From kubajz at kbx.cz Wed Oct 10 21:25:55 2007 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Jakub Sykora) Date: Wed, 10 Oct 2007 22:25:55 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Range Reduction In-Reply-To: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> References: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> Message-ID: <470D3553.90809@kbx.cz> Daniel Polak napsal(a): > How important is the range reduction to let's say make ronja work on a distance of 5m? What's technical difference when you do the range reduction? > > > This is a common problem in nearly all telco products - the receiver has some dynamic range, which cannot be exceeded. This is the same with your eyes or ears. You cannot hear distant noises and heavy metal concert at once. And people's sensors are of much more better quality then electronics can be. Compare the density of eyes to the density of the best digital camera. K From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 10 23:05:12 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Thu, 11 Oct 2007 00:05:12 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Range Reduction In-Reply-To: <470D3553.90809@kbx.cz> References: <20071010100148.84070@gmx.net> <470D3553.90809@kbx.cz> Message-ID: <20071010220512.GA31202@kestrel.barix.local> On Wed, Oct 10, 2007 at 10:25:55PM +0200, Jakub Sykora wrote: > Daniel Polak napsal(a): > > How important is the range reduction to let's say make ronja work on a distance of 5m? What's technical difference when you do the range reduction? > > > > > > > This is a common problem in nearly all telco products - the receiver has > some dynamic range, which cannot be exceeded. This is the same with your > eyes or ears. You cannot hear distant noises and heavy metal concert at > once. And people's sensors are of much more better quality then > electronics can be. Compare the density of eyes to the density of the > best digital camera. Noone wants Ronja to receive strong and weak signal at the same time. Your ears are actually able to hear wide dynamic range but they use trick - a muscle in the ear contracts and moves something in the mechanical transmission inside the ear to make it less sensitive. There could be an automatic mechanism like this in Ronja but there is an inherent problem with stability and transient response of such mechanism and it would increase the complexity. So instead you do it manually by resoldering a resistor and capacitor. People don't change the length of their link often. I am trying to make a better RX which would have improved dynamic range. CL< > > K > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Fri Oct 12 10:42:42 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 11:42:42 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier Message-ID: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> Hello Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS but is impossible to get. BF988 which is #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement has 13mS. Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not generated by the forward transfer admittance, but rather by the real part of the input admittance, then the vacuum tube has a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to buy it easily? Experience with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't there some other noise source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors that would kill the hopes? It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance to lightning we could start claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more natural sound. CL< From exolon at seznam.cz Fri Oct 12 12:22:41 2007 From: exolon at seznam.cz (Exolon) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 13:22:41 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja Digest, Vol 54, Issue 9 In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <1482232163.20071012132241@seznam.cz> rrlpn> Hello rrlpn> Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has rrlpn> 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best rrlpn> transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS rrlpn> forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS but is rrlpn> impossible to get. BF988 which is rrlpn> #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement has 13mS. rrlpn> Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not generated by the forward transfer rrlpn> admittance, but rather by the real part of the input rrlpn> admittance, then the vacuum tube has rrlpn> a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. rrlpn> Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to buy it easily? Experience rrlpn> with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't there some other noise rrlpn> source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors that would kill the rrlpn> hopes? Napriklad v ges.cz http://www.ges.cz/?search=ECC88&page=index&inc=search&or=sort&ipp=12&lang=cz&cur=CZK rrlpn> It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance to lightning we could start rrlpn> claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more rrlpn> natural sound. rrlpn> CL< From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Fri Oct 12 13:26:01 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 14:26:01 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: I worked a lot with mobile radio when I was 13-20 years old. Most installed base VHF and UHF radios had a dual triode cascode as first RF input stage and were beeing replaced with solid state x-ceivers. Noise factor was not so good in these designs, so a common "fix" we did to "beef up" old sets was to replace the dual triode with a dual gate mosfet. The lower noise figure gave new life to old radios. Often this could be done "airwire" by soldering the fet to the tube socket, and changing bias and DC. Sensitivity could go from 1 uV @ 20 dB SINAD to 0.2 uV , more than doubling range. To me this indicates there were other sources of noise, a guess thermal from the 800 deg cathode electron cloud. In these cases, the Cin of the tube was of course resonated with the input L/C circuit, so the capacitance did not disturb, whereas in Ronja it will create a pole with the PD resistor. Are you trying to get more speed or lower noise figure? Gullik Hello Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS but is impossible to get. BF988 which is #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement has 13mS. Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not generated by the forward transfer admittance, but rather by the real part of the input admittance, then the vacuum tube has a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to buy it easily? Experience with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't there some other noise source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors that would kill the hopes? It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance to lightning we could start claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more natural sound. CL< -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Fri Oct 12 16:22:05 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 17:22:05 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071012152204.GA2356@kestrel.barix.local> On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 02:26:01PM +0200, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > > I worked a lot with mobile radio when I was 13-20 years old. > Most installed base VHF and UHF radios had a dual triode cascode > as first RF input stage and were beeing replaced with solid state x-ceivers. > > Noise factor was not so good in these designs, so a common "fix" > we did to "beef up" old sets was to replace the dual triode with > a dual gate mosfet. The lower noise figure gave new life to old > radios. Often this could be done "airwire" by soldering the fet > to the tube socket, and changing bias and DC. Sensitivity could > go from 1 uV @ 20 dB SINAD to 0.2 uV , more than doubling range. > > To me this indicates there were other sources of noise, a guess > thermal from the 800 deg cathode electron cloud. > > In these cases, the Cin of the tube was of course resonated with the > input L/C circuit, so the capacitance did not disturb, whereas in Ronja > it will create a pole with the PD resistor. > > Are you trying to get more speed or lower noise figure? Lower noise figure. The input capacity doesn't have an effect on speed in the Ronja design. CL< From ladmanj at volny.cz Fri Oct 12 17:25:09 2007 From: ladmanj at volny.cz (ladmanj at volny.cz) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:25:09 +0200 (CEST) Subject: [Ronja] =?iso-8859-2?q?Vacuum_tube_in_Ronja_preamplifier?= In-Reply-To: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <7898cdef2d63e271b6c43d2e335cec3b@www3.mail.volny.cz> Jak u? n?kdo psal, elektronka se d? koupit nap? v Gesu. Ur?it? bys to m?l zkusit ud?lat, proto?e ronja s lampou je naprosto hust? v?c :-) a to ??k?m i p?esto, ?e: a) bude? pot?ebovat vysok? nap?t? pro anodu, ale to se d? n?jak?m integrovan?m sp?nan?m zdrojem snadno ud?lat, ale i tak to vn?m?m jako silnou nev?hodu. b) elektronka m? proti polovodi?i malou ?ivotnost, te? si ??sla neum?m vycucat z prstu, ale moc se asi nebudu m?lit, kdy? nap??u, ?e elektronku by bylo t?eba jednou za rok vym?nit (v?t?ina za??zen? s vakuovou elektronikou nen? ur?eno jako ronja k trval?mu provozu). Jestli takovej p?ij?ma? ud?l??, tak si ho r?d postav?m, ale nasadit ho n?kde, kde je t?eba n?jak? spolehlivost, to asi ne. Jakub Ladman ----- P?VODN? ZPR?VA ----- Od: "Karel Kulhavy" Komu: "Twibright Ronja" P?edm?t: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier Datum: 12.10.2007 - 11:42:42 > Hello > > Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise > and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has > 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best > transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS > forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS > but is impossible to get. BF988 which is > #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement > has 13mS. > > Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not > generated by the forward transfer > admittance, but rather by the real part of the input > admittance, then the vacuum tube has > a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. > > Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to > buy it easily? Experience > with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't > there some other noise > source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors > that would kill the > hopes? > > It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance > to lightning we could start > claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja > has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more > natural sound. > > CL< > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Fri Oct 12 17:51:54 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 18:51:54 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <7898cdef2d63e271b6c43d2e335cec3b@www3.mail.volny.cz> References: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> <7898cdef2d63e271b6c43d2e335cec3b@www3.mail.volny.cz> Message-ID: <20071012165154.GA5019@kestrel.barix.local> On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 06:25:09PM +0200, ladmanj at volny.cz wrote: > Jak u? n?kdo psal, elektronka se d? koupit nap? v Gesu. > Ur?it? bys to m?l zkusit ud?lat, proto?e ronja s lampou je naprosto > hust? v?c :-) a to ??k?m i p?esto, ?e: > a) bude? pot?ebovat vysok? nap?t? pro anodu, ale to se d? n?jak?m > integrovan?m sp?nan?m zdrojem snadno ud?lat, ale i tak to vn?m?m > jako silnou nev?hodu. > b) elektronka m? proti polovodi?i malou ?ivotnost, te? si ??sla > neum?m vycucat z prstu, ale moc se asi nebudu m?lit, kdy? nap??u, > ?e elektronku by bylo t?eba jednou za rok vym?nit (v?t?ina za??zen? > s vakuovou elektronikou nen? ur?eno jako ronja k trval?mu provozu). > Jestli takovej p?ij?ma? ud?l??, tak si ho r?d postav?m, ale nasadit > ho n?kde, kde je t?eba n?jak? spolehlivost, to asi ne. jeste na to nalepit "Hendrix", "Woodstock", "Marshall" a "DANGER: Hazardous Voltage" No nekdo pise ze elektronky sumely tak asi ne :( Leda jako recesi. CL<` > Jakub Ladman > > > > ----- P?VODN? ZPR?VA ----- > Od: "Karel Kulhavy" > Komu: "Twibright Ronja" > P?edm?t: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier > Datum: 12.10.2007 - 11:42:42 > > > Hello > > > > Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise > > and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has > > 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best > > transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS > > forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS > > but is impossible to get. BF988 which is > > #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement > > has 13mS. > > > > Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not > > generated by the forward transfer > > admittance, but rather by the real part of the input > > admittance, then the vacuum tube has > > a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. > > > > Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to > > buy it easily? Experience > > with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't > > there some other noise > > source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors > > that would kill the > > hopes? > > > > It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance > > to lightning we could start > > claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja > > has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more > > natural sound. > > > > CL< > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Fri Oct 12 20:32:58 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 21:32:58 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071012152204.GA2356@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: >Lower noise figure. The input capacity doesn't have an effect on speed >in the Ronja design. >CL< How far are you from the target? I would imagine the large Rin sets the noise factor. Most optical preamps use a transimpedance amp, where the Rin ( Zin) is very low, so that the noise contribution from that is minimised. A PIN diode similar to the one in Ronja, ( BPV10, OPA905 ) into a transimpedance amp gives a flat frequency response almost to 100 Mhz, and a sensitivity of -30-36 dBm for 10 dB eye opening. What power do you estimate reaches the standard Ronja PIN? I see your point about vacuum tubes, given that you have a VERY high Gm, noise seems to be set mainly by the 1:st grid, and is divided by Gm. Gullik From kubajz at kbx.cz Sat Oct 13 08:38:39 2007 From: kubajz at kbx.cz (Jakub Sykora) Date: Sat, 13 Oct 2007 09:38:39 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071012165154.GA5019@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071012094242.GA22124@kestrel.barix.local> <7898cdef2d63e271b6c43d2e335cec3b@www3.mail.volny.cz> <20071012165154.GA5019@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <471075FF.8050605@kbx.cz> Elektronek jsou miliardy typu a navic je osidne srovnavat elektronku vyrobenou pred 30ti lety s tou, co se vyrabi dnes. Obecne mam ten pocit, ze dneska se prave vyrabeji elektronky takovych typu, ktere maji v nekterych ohledech lepsi parametry nez tranzistory, aby se zaplnila dira v trhu. K Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > On Fri, Oct 12, 2007 at 06:25:09PM +0200, ladmanj na volny.cz wrote: > >> Jak u? n?kdo psal, elektronka se d? koupit nap? v Gesu. >> Ur?it? bys to m?l zkusit ud?lat, proto?e ronja s lampou je naprosto >> hust? v?c :-) a to ??k?m i p?esto, ?e: >> a) bude? pot?ebovat vysok? nap?t? pro anodu, ale to se d? n?jak?m >> integrovan?m sp?nan?m zdrojem snadno ud?lat, ale i tak to vn?m?m >> jako silnou nev?hodu. >> b) elektronka m? proti polovodi?i malou ?ivotnost, te? si ??sla >> neum?m vycucat z prstu, ale moc se asi nebudu m?lit, kdy? nap??u, >> ?e elektronku by bylo t?eba jednou za rok vym?nit (v?t?ina za??zen? >> s vakuovou elektronikou nen? ur?eno jako ronja k trval?mu provozu). >> Jestli takovej p?ij?ma? ud?l??, tak si ho r?d postav?m, ale nasadit >> ho n?kde, kde je t?eba n?jak? spolehlivost, to asi ne. >> > > jeste na to nalepit "Hendrix", "Woodstock", "Marshall" a > "DANGER: Hazardous Voltage" > > No nekdo pise ze elektronky sumely tak asi ne :( Leda jako recesi. > > CL<` > >> Jakub Ladman >> >> >> >> ----- P?VODN? ZPR?VA ----- >> Od: "Karel Kulhavy" >> Komu: "Twibright Ronja" >> P?edm?t: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier >> Datum: 12.10.2007 - 11:42:42 >> >> >>> Hello >>> >>> Someone suggested that vacuum tubes have very low noise >>> and suggested PCC88/ECC88. It has >>> 1.4pF input capacitance which is better than the best >>> transistor (BF908, 2.4pF) and 12.5mS >>> forward transfer admittance. BF908 has 36-43-50 mS >>> but is impossible to get. BF988 which is >>> #1 has 21-24- mS and BF960 which is also a common replacement >>> has 13mS. >>> >>> Now if the dominant noise in the transistor is not >>> generated by the forward transfer >>> admittance, but rather by the real part of the input >>> admittance, then the vacuum tube has >>> a great chance to be actually better than a transistor. >>> >>> Does anyone have PCC/ECC88 at home or knows where to >>> buy it easily? Experience >>> with vacuum tubes? What do you think about it? Isn't >>> there some other noise >>> source in vacuum tubes that isn't present in transistors >>> that would kill the >>> hopes? >>> >>> It would be definitely great apart from increased resistance >>> to lightning we could start >>> claiming that digital music transmitted through Ronja >>> has a better, warmer, fuzzier, more >>> natural sound. >>> >>> CL< >>> >>> -- >>> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >>> Ronja na lists.pointless.net >>> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja >>> >> >> -- >> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> Ronja na lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja >> > > From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Sun Oct 14 14:25:18 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 15:25:18 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071012152204.GA2356@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: Clock, >From the Ronja specifications Power out 17mW Divergence: 1.9 mRad Assume: 130 mm lupe, 1400m distance If I calculate received power from this, I get Spot size = tan(1.9e-3) * 1400 m = 2.66 m Receive lens = 0.065^2 * PI = 0.0132 m2 Rec power = 0.017 W * 0.0132/(2.66)^2 = 31 uW = -45 dBW = -15 dBm To me this seems like a lot of power, more than 10-15 dB above what is specified for Fiber Optic receivers. I guess you have allowed for fade margin, but, is Ronja really noise limited? Do you agree with my calculations, or did I miss something? Regards, Gullik From klapek at kki.net.pl Sun Oct 14 21:57:45 2007 From: klapek at kki.net.pl (Tomasz Koprowski) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:57:45 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <200710142257.46356.klapek@kki.net.pl> On Sunday 14 of October 2007 15:25, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > Spot size = tan(1.9e-3) * 1400 m = 2.66 m > Receive lens = 0.065^2 * PI = 0.0132 m2 > Rec power = 0.017 W * 0.0132/(2.66)^2 = 31 uW = -45 dBW = -15 dBm (...) > > Do you agree with my calculations, or did I miss something? What comes to my mind is atmospheric loss due to absorption and scattering which can go from a few dB/km in good conditions to 150 dB/km in dense fog. [1] Regards, Tomek [1] Gesellschaft fur optische Kommunikationssysteme mbH. "Theoretical background of FSO", 2003. http://www.cbl.de/downloads/pdf/Whitepaper%20-%20Technology%20of%20FSO.pdf From clock at twibright.com Sun Oct 14 22:21:18 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:21:18 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: <20071012152204.GA2356@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071014212118.GA3385@kestrel.barix.local> On Sun, Oct 14, 2007 at 03:25:18PM +0200, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > Clock, > > > >From the Ronja specifications > > Power out 17mW > Divergence: 1.9 mRad > > Assume: 130 mm lupe, 1400m distance > > If I calculate received power from this, I get > > Spot size = tan(1.9e-3) * 1400 m = 2.66 m > > Receive lens = 0.065^2 * PI = 0.0132 m2 > > Rec power = 0.017 W * 0.0132/(2.66)^2 = 31 uW = -45 dBW = -15 dBm > > To me this seems like a lot of power, more than 10-15 dB above > what is specified for Fiber Optic receivers. > > I guess you have allowed for fade margin, but, is Ronja really noise > limited? yes every transmission system if designed properly is noise limited. > > Do you agree with my calculations, or did I miss something? No the spot calculation assumes that the radiated pattern is a sharp uniform circle which is not true. it also ignores 4 glass-air interfaces which reflect power 5% each. It also ignores the loss of power in the glass itself which is not negligible in these window-glass Chinese lenses. It also assumes that the receiver lens is able to concentrate all incoming light onto the detector which is not true. Fibre optic system doesn't have ambient light from the sun with the associated strong noise source. CL< > > Regards, > > Gullik > > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Mon Oct 15 00:07:51 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 01:07:51 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071014212118.GA3385@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: > Rec power = 0.017 W * 0.0132/(2.66)^2 = 31 uW = -45 dBW = -15 dBm >No the spot calculation assumes that the radiated pattern is a sharp uniform >circle which is not true. Indeed, but with your "focusing magic" we are essentially seeing the average LED die ( a part of that is ) with our little aperture in the middle of the spot... >it also ignores 4 glass-air interfaces which reflect power 5% each. Ok, so we correct the figure with (0.95)^4 = -0.8 dB >It also ignores the loss of power in the glass itself which is not negligible >in these window-glass Chinese lenses. True, but better glass lenses (still VERY cheap) exists, mine come from India and are optical glass. ( < 5 euro each) They come from school material supply. I also have beautiful PMMA 130 mm lenses, lightweight, very good presicion, slight cromatic abberation, but this is single wavelength (more or less) >It also assumes that the receiver lens is able to concentrate all incoming >light onto the detector which is not true. I can get remote light down onto 0.5 mm PIN diode chip, i.e. projected image < 0.5 mm. But it is better to use a larger PIN, angular precision is easier. >Fibre optic system doesn't have ambient light from the sun with the associated >strong noise source. Indeed, but if the *sun* dominates, then receiver noise factor is not a big deal ? Then only fix is filtering / optical screening to lower sun optical noise, is that not so? Back to the original discussion, I think the Vacuum tube idea is interesting, I just question what a lower noise factor would do to performance. Have you looked at PMT?s, photomultipliers are a very nice optical input device, however GREEN or BLUE light would match the photocathodes much better than red. Some types work with down to 500 V, and since the current is uA, a very simple HT supply will work. They can count single photons !!! and have conversion efficiencies at 100-1000 A/W. Expensive however....! There are "sun-blind" PMTs, where visible and IR light is not converted. These can be bought surplus for small pennies.... Question: what is the typical input sensitivity of a Ronja Receiver, I assume you have measured it, but I cant find it on the web site? Gullik CL< > > Regards, > > Gullik > > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 15 08:00:26 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 09:00:26 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: <20071014212118.GA3385@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071015070026.GA599@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 01:07:51AM +0200, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > > Rec power = 0.017 W * 0.0132/(2.66)^2 = 31 uW = -45 dBW = -15 dBm > > > >No the spot calculation assumes that the radiated pattern is a sharp > uniform > >circle which is not true. > > Indeed, but with your "focusing magic" we are essentially seeing the average > LED die ( a part of that is ) with our little aperture in the middle of the > spot... > > >it also ignores 4 glass-air interfaces which reflect power 5% each. > > Ok, so we correct the figure with (0.95)^4 = -0.8 dB > > >It also ignores the loss of power in the glass itself which is not > negligible > >in these window-glass Chinese lenses. > > True, but better glass lenses (still VERY cheap) exists, mine come from > India > and are optical glass. ( < 5 euro each) They come from school material > supply. > I also have beautiful PMMA 130 mm lenses, lightweight, very good presicion, > slight cromatic abberation, but this is single wavelength (more or less) > > >It also assumes that the receiver lens is able to concentrate all incoming > >light onto the detector which is not true. > > I can get remote light down onto 0.5 mm PIN diode chip, i.e. projected image > < 0.5 mm. > But it is better to use a larger PIN, angular precision is easier. > > >Fibre optic system doesn't have ambient light from the sun with the > associated > >strong noise source. > > Indeed, but if the *sun* dominates, then receiver noise factor is not a big > deal ? Sun dominates during day. Receiver noise dominates during night or low light conditions. > Then only fix is filtering / optical screening to lower sun optical noise, > is that not so? > > Back to the original discussion, I think the Vacuum tube idea is > interesting, I just question > what a lower noise factor would do to performance. > > Have you looked at PMT?s, photomultipliers are a very nice optical input Yes. > device, however > GREEN or BLUE light would match the photocathodes much better than red. Some > types work > with down to 500 V, and since the current is uA, a very simple HT supply > will work. They can > count single photons !!! and have conversion efficiencies at 100-1000 A/W. > Expensive however....! > There are "sun-blind" PMTs, where visible and IR light is not converted. > These can be bought surplus for small pennies.... > > Question: what is the typical input sensitivity of a Ronja Receiver, I > assume you have > measured it, but I cant find it on the web site? No I didn't measure input sensitivity. In what units is it supposed to be measured? CL< > > Gullik > > CL< > > > > > Regards, > > > > Gullik > > > > > > > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Mon Oct 15 09:47:37 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 10:47:37 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: <20071015070026.GA599@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: >Sun dominates during day. Receiver noise dominates during night or low light >conditions. Then daytime performance is the limit, isn?t it? If the light could be filtered, maybee we could get rid of excess sun energy, and get receiver to be limiting factor. >No I didn't measure input sensitivity. In what units is it supposed to be >measured? The convention seems to be dBm @ SNR, or dBm @ BER, I have always tried to work in these measurements, because then it is possible to compare what I can do in the lab with what other people / products achieve. I usually do SNR "estimates", you can do that by looking at a scope, and just compare no-signal to signal conditions visually, it does not work so good for SNR < 8, because it is hard to evaluate "noise" vs. scope tracewidth. I guess for Ronja the RSSI could be calibrated. I have used a "large" photo diode ( small solar cell ). With that, a resistor and a multimeter, good optical power measurements can be made. It has to be calibrated for wavelength, but after that it is perfectly good. Even better, a Hamamatsu S1337-66BR is a 5.6 x 5.6 mm photodiode ( $50 ) that can be used to measure light sources by masuring short circuit current. Then the datasheet can be used to calibrate against wavelength conversion efficiency ( A/W) For the Ronja RX, I think a measure of sensitivity would be good for people troubleshooting, or trying to optimise performance / distance. One experiment you have done which tells a lot, but maybee could be improved is the "floor test". It should be possible to estimate the power that reaches the RX without optics. It should also be possible to take the test transmitter (starquake) and test it with a commercial powermeter at a certain distance. Just some thoughts... Gullik From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 15 10:57:05 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:57:05 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: <20071015070026.GA599@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071015095705.GA3909@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 10:47:37AM +0200, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > > >Sun dominates during day. Receiver noise dominates during night or low > light > >conditions. > > Then daytime performance is the limit, isn?t it? If the light could be There isn't any limit. If you increase the sensitivity then the downtime goes down. You have fogs during night. > filtered, OK find an optical filter which is cheap easy to get available around the whole world and actually brings more benefit by filtering the noise than the disadvantage it brings for the signal with insertion loss. CL< > maybee we could get rid of excess sun energy, and get receiver to be > limiting factor. > > > >No I didn't measure input sensitivity. In what units is it supposed to be > >measured? > > The convention seems to be dBm @ SNR, or dBm @ BER, I have always tried to > work > in these measurements, because then it is possible to compare what I can do > in the lab > with what other people / products achieve. > > I usually do SNR "estimates", you can do that by looking at a scope, and > just compare > no-signal to signal conditions visually, it does not work so good for SNR < > 8, because > it is hard to evaluate "noise" vs. scope tracewidth. > > I guess for Ronja the RSSI could be calibrated. > > I have used a "large" photo diode ( small solar cell ). With that, a > resistor and a multimeter, > good optical power measurements can be made. It has to be calibrated for > wavelength, but after > that it is perfectly good. Even better, a Hamamatsu S1337-66BR is a 5.6 x > 5.6 mm photodiode ( $50 ) > that can be used to measure light sources by masuring short circuit current. > Then the datasheet > can be used to calibrate against wavelength conversion efficiency ( A/W) > > For the Ronja RX, I think a measure of sensitivity would be good for people > troubleshooting, > or trying to optimise performance / distance. > > One experiment you have done which tells a lot, but maybee could be improved > is the "floor test". > > It should be possible to estimate the power that reaches the RX without > optics. It should also be > possible to take the test transmitter (starquake) and test it with a > commercial powermeter at a certain > distance. > > Just some thoughts... > > Gullik > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From jdb at lartmaker.nl Mon Oct 15 14:02:17 2007 From: jdb at lartmaker.nl (J.D. Bakker) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 15:02:17 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: > >Fibre optic system doesn't have ambient light from the sun with >the associated >>strong noise source. > >Indeed, but if the *sun* dominates, then receiver noise factor is not a big >deal ? Sun noise doesn't necessarily dominate, see http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-August/009130.html http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-August/009132.html ie: daytime sun-induced shot noise is equivalent to ~ -43dBm. >Then only fix is filtering / optical screening to lower sun optical noise, >is that not so? That would be a good plan. I still hope to find the time to experiment with gel filters such as are used by theater lightning technicians. Point remains that the current front-end is noisier and less sensitive than necessary; IMHO a change of architecture (active transimpedance amp versus the resistor that's used now) helps more that going for a hard-to-get vacuum tube would. JDB. -- LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. http://www.lartmaker.nl/ From pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com Mon Oct 15 14:17:10 2007 From: pkyaduvanshi at gmail.com (Pramod yaduvanshi) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 18:47:10 +0530 Subject: [Ronja] filter for reciever Message-ID: <50d3ad760710150617t4b84bd39gee7065dbb0be82e7@mail.gmail.com> Well to filter the received light at receiver I am trying out a Seven segment LED display bessel which is easily available and is extremely cheap . Am not sure how much insertion losses it will introduce . Has any one else tried out these filters they are specifically for red light only. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20071015/ead3878e/attachment.html From jakub.michnik at centrum.cz Mon Oct 15 20:53:08 2007 From: jakub.michnik at centrum.cz (=?ISO-8859-2?Q?Jakub_Michn=EDk?=) Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 21:53:08 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Ledky Message-ID: <4713C524.8060804@centrum.cz> hoj Nemate nekdo navic par ledek? Ondra tesar mi neodpovedel a skfree ma asi nejaky novy mejl, nebo nevim, proste jim to nedoslo. Jinak budu mit na prodej svoji ronju po rekonstrukci. komplet, 75mm verze, takze kdyby mel nekdo zajem, muzete se ozvat. Kubas From clock at twibright.com Tue Oct 16 07:45:09 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:45:09 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] filter for reciever In-Reply-To: <50d3ad760710150617t4b84bd39gee7065dbb0be82e7@mail.gmail.com> References: <50d3ad760710150617t4b84bd39gee7065dbb0be82e7@mail.gmail.com> Message-ID: <20071016064509.GA21723@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 06:47:10PM +0530, Pramod yaduvanshi wrote: > Well to filter the received light at receiver I am trying out a Seven > segment LED display bessel which is easily available and is extremely cheap > . Am not sure how much insertion losses it will introduce . Has any one else > tried out these filters they are specifically for red light only. I didn't but I calculated it from some data I found somewhere (filtering glass or whatever it was) and found out it's actually making the situation worse. CL< From clock at twibright.com Tue Oct 16 07:46:11 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 08:46:11 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Vacuum tube in Ronja preamplifier In-Reply-To: References: Message-ID: <20071016064611.GB21723@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 15, 2007 at 03:02:17PM +0200, J.D. Bakker wrote: > > >Fibre optic system doesn't have ambient light from the sun with > >the associated > >>strong noise source. > > > >Indeed, but if the *sun* dominates, then receiver noise factor is not a big > >deal ? > > Sun noise doesn't necessarily dominate, see > > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-August/009130.html > http://www.pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/2006-August/009132.html > > ie: daytime sun-induced shot noise is equivalent to ~ -43dBm. > > >Then only fix is filtering / optical screening to lower sun optical noise, > >is that not so? > > That would be a good plan. I still hope to find the time to > experiment with gel filters such as are used by theater lightning > technicians. > > Point remains that the current front-end is noisier and less > sensitive than necessary; IMHO a change of architecture (active > transimpedance amp versus the resistor that's used now) helps more > that going for a hard-to-get vacuum tube would. OK make it more sensitive people will like you. CL< > > JDB. > -- > LART. 250 MIPS under one Watt. Free hardware design files. > http://www.lartmaker.nl/ > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From dpolak at gmx.ch Tue Oct 16 21:19:29 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Tue, 16 Oct 2007 22:19:29 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing Message-ID: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> It seems that only one Receiver I built is working. On the other one RSSI is low only when I put transmitter and and receiver closer than 10cm together RSSI is ok. I get at P101 11.55V which is OK. P110 is 12.23V. On the working one there's no difference when BPW43 is connected or not. On the not working one i get a voltage drop of 0.3V when BPW43 is connected. My fault was that I firstly connected BPW43 the wrong way around. Coul my BPW43 be damaged? -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 17 07:56:32 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 08:56:32 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> On Tue, Oct 16, 2007 at 10:19:29PM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > It seems that only one Receiver I built is working. On the other one RSSI is > low only when I put transmitter and and receiver closer than 10cm together > RSSI is ok. I get at P101 11.55V which is OK. P110 is 12.23V. On the working > one there's no difference when BPW43 is connected or not. On the not working > one i get a voltage drop of 0.3V when BPW43 is connected. My fault was that Where do you get the voltage drop? > I firstly connected BPW43 the wrong way around. Coul my BPW43 be damaged? If you connect the BPW43 the other way around it doesn't damage. R101 limits the current to a negligible amount. CL< > -- > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From dpolak at gmx.ch Wed Oct 17 11:53:28 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Wed, 17 Oct 2007 12:53:28 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> The voltage drop is at P101. I rechecked the R106 value and I measured the current again between P104A and P104. This Time i got 7.8mA. Before I had around 12mA which confuses me. So I replaced R106 with a 820 Ohm Resistor. Now P101 is at 11.4V which is still 0.1V to low becuse P110 is 12.2V. At P104 i get just 3V? > > It seems that only one Receiver I built is working. On the other one > RSSI is > > low only when I put transmitter and and receiver closer than 10cm > together > > RSSI is ok. I get at P101 11.55V which is OK. P110 is 12.23V. On the > working > > one there's no difference when BPW43 is connected or not. On the not > working > > one i get a voltage drop of 0.3V when BPW43 is connected. My fault was > that Where do you get the voltage drop? > > I firstly connected BPW43 the wrong way around. Coul my BPW43 be > damaged? If you connect the BPW43 the other way around it doesn't damage. R101 limits the current to a negligible amount. CL< -- Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger From dpolak at gmx.ch Fri Oct 19 09:38:56 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:38:56 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity Message-ID: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net> Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? -- GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail From dpolak at gmx.ch Fri Oct 19 09:39:56 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 10:39:56 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net> I solved the problem with a new BF998 Transistor. > The voltage drop is at P101. I rechecked the R106 value and I measured the > current again between P104A and P104. This Time i got 7.8mA. Before I had > around 12mA which confuses me. So I replaced R106 with a 820 Ohm Resistor. > Now P101 is at 11.4V which is still 0.1V to low becuse P110 is 12.2V. At > P104 i get just 3V? > > > > > It seems that only one Receiver I built is working. On the other one > > RSSI is > > > low only when I put transmitter and and receiver closer than 10cm > > together > > > RSSI is ok. I get at P101 11.55V which is OK. P110 is 12.23V. On the > > working > > > one there's no difference when BPW43 is connected or not. On the not > > working > > > one i get a voltage drop of 0.3V when BPW43 is connected. My fault was > > that > > Where do you get the voltage drop? > > > > I firstly connected BPW43 the wrong way around. Coul my BPW43 be > > damaged? > > If you connect the BPW43 the other way around it doesn't damage. R101 > limits > the current to a negligible amount. > > CL< > > > -- > Psssst! Schon vom neuen GMX MultiMessenger geh?rt? > Der kanns mit allen: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/multimessenger > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -- Der GMX SmartSurfer hilft bis zu 70% Ihrer Onlinekosten zu sparen! Ideal f?r Modem und ISDN: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/smartsurfer From clock at twibright.com Fri Oct 19 18:32:37 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:32:37 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net> References: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071019173237.GA9037@kestrel.barix.local> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated with > the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not sure about > the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. CL< > > > > > -- > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Fri Oct 19 18:32:53 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Fri, 19 Oct 2007 19:32:53 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:39:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > I solved the problem with a new BF998 Transistor. And what was it? CL< From ladmanj at volny.cz Sun Oct 21 16:24:00 2007 From: ladmanj at volny.cz (Jakub Ladman) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 17:24:00 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: <20071019173237.GA9037@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net> <20071019173237.GA9037@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <200710211724.00618.ladmanj@volny.cz> Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated > > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not > > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? > > I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds > passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about > 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz Jakub Ladman > > CL< > > > -- > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Sun Oct 21 18:07:06 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 19:07:06 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: <200710211724.00618.ladmanj@volny.cz> Message-ID: Read: Channel capacity, not circuit bandwidth... Gullik -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fran: ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net [mailto:ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net]For Jakub Ladman Skickat: den 21 oktober 2007 17:24 Till: Twibright Ronja Amne: Re: [Ronja] Channel Capacity Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated > > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not > > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? > > I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds > passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about > 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz Jakub Ladman > > CL< > > > -- > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From petr.cipis at tiscali.cz Sun Oct 21 19:36:26 2007 From: petr.cipis at tiscali.cz (Cipis) Date: Sun, 21 Oct 2007 20:36:26 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity References: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net><20071019173237.GA9037@kestrel.barix.local> <200710211724.00618.ladmanj@volny.cz> Message-ID: <002801c81411$49b66970$5046a8c0@cipis.net> Podle nekterych testu by se dalo procpat 30-40 Mbit/sec. Kralovi to beha 35 Mbit/sec. Cipis ----- Original Message ----- From: "Jakub Ladman" To: "Twibright Ronja" Sent: Sunday, October 21, 2007 5:24 PM Subject: Re: [Ronja] Channel Capacity > Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): >> On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: >> > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated >> > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not >> > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? >> >> I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds >> passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about >> 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. > > Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. > I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz > > Jakub Ladman > >> >> CL< >> >> > -- >> > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. >> > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail >> > >> > -- >> > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> > Ronja na lists.pointless.net >> > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja na lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 22 10:05:18 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:05:18 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: <200710211724.00618.ladmanj@volny.cz> References: <20071019083856.317090@gmx.net> <20071019173237.GA9037@kestrel.barix.local> <200710211724.00618.ladmanj@volny.cz> Message-ID: <20071022090518.GC25030@kestrel.barix.local> On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:24:00PM +0200, Jakub Ladman wrote: > Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > > > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated > > > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not > > > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? > > > > I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds > > passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about > > 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. > > Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. > I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz The transmission bandwidth is like this due to spectral width of the LED diode. It's an electromagnetic signal at 480,000 GHz, 77,000 GHz wide ;-) Then it is demodulated like envelope detected on the photodiode. The electronics bandwidth is aimed at 16MHz. But I don't know if Shannon theorem takes quantum effects into the account. On this frequency they are already strong. CL< > > Jakub Ladman > > > > > CL< > > > > > -- > > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > > > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > > > > > -- > > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From gullik.webjorn at flysta.net Mon Oct 22 10:47:04 2007 From: gullik.webjorn at flysta.net (=?us-ascii?Q?Gullik_Webjorn?=) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 11:47:04 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: <20071022090518.GC25030@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: Clock, How do we design optical heterodyne Ronja? Then we might actually go somewhere towards the 77,000 Ghz :-) Gullik -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- Fran: ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net [mailto:ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net]For Karel Kulhavy Skickat: den 22 oktober 2007 11:05 Till: Twibright Ronja Amne: Re: [Ronja] Channel Capacity On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:24:00PM +0200, Jakub Ladman wrote: > Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > > > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis calculated > > > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not > > > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? > > > > I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds > > passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about > > 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. > > Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. > I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz The transmission bandwidth is like this due to spectral width of the LED diode. It's an electromagnetic signal at 480,000 GHz, 77,000 GHz wide ;-) Then it is demodulated like envelope detected on the photodiode. The electronics bandwidth is aimed at 16MHz. But I don't know if Shannon theorem takes quantum effects into the account. On this frequency they are already strong. CL< > > Jakub Ladman > > > > > CL< > > > > > -- > > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > > > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > > > > > -- > > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 22 15:42:48 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 16:42:48 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Channel Capacity In-Reply-To: References: <20071022090518.GC25030@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071022144248.GB14042@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 11:47:04AM +0200, Gullik Webjorn wrote: > Clock, > > How do we design optical heterodyne Ronja? Optical heterodyne is done by mixing the optical input signal with a local source that is coherent to it directly on the photodiode. You just shine the received signal and local oscillator both on the diode. The difference between the spectral line frequencies should appear on the photodiode output. or you put the optical fiber into your sound card, record with sampling frequency of 1000,000 GHz and then open in Audacity and look at the spectrum CL< > > Then we might actually go somewhere towards the 77,000 Ghz :-) > > Gullik > > -----Ursprungligt meddelande----- > Fran: ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net > [mailto:ronja-bounces+gullik.webjorn=flysta.net at lists.pointless.net]For > Karel Kulhavy > Skickat: den 22 oktober 2007 11:05 > Till: Twibright Ronja > Amne: Re: [Ronja] Channel Capacity > > > On Sun, Oct 21, 2007 at 05:24:00PM +0200, Jakub Ladman wrote: > > Dne Friday 19 October 2007 19:32:37 Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > > > On Fri, Oct 19, 2007 at 10:38:56AM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > > > > Whats the theoretical channel capacity from Ronja Tetrapolis > calculated > > > > with the shannon-hartley theorem? I tried to calculate it but I'm not > > > > sure about the bandwidth. What's the bandwidth in hertz? > > > > > > I don't know. What I know for sure it's constantly changing with clouds > > > passing over the landscape, fog, day/night etc. The bandwidth is about > > > 100nm which is 77,000 GHz. > > > > Bandwidth of ronja circuits 77GHz? This is absolute nonsense. > > I have not calculated it, but i estimate it about 50MHz > > The transmission bandwidth is like this due to spectral width of the LED > diode. > It's an electromagnetic signal at 480,000 GHz, 77,000 GHz wide ;-) Then it > is > demodulated like envelope detected on the photodiode. The electronics > bandwidth > is aimed at 16MHz. > > But I don't know if Shannon theorem takes quantum effects into the account. > On > this frequency they are already strong. > > CL< > > > > > Jakub Ladman > > > > > > > > CL< > > > > > > > -- > > > > GMX FreeMail: 1 GB Postfach, 5 E-Mail-Adressen, 10 Free SMS. > > > > Alle Infos und kostenlose Anmeldung: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/freemail > > > > > > > > -- > > > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > > > > > > -- > > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From dpolak at gmx.ch Mon Oct 22 18:29:45 2007 From: dpolak at gmx.ch (Daniel Polak) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 19:29:45 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net> <20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071022172945.189910@gmx.net> I don't know why the transistor was damaged. Maybe it was a ESD damage. > > I solved the problem with a new BF998 Transistor. > > And what was it? > > CL< > > -- -- Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 22 19:52:44 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 20:52:44 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] Receiver Trouble while testing In-Reply-To: <20071022172945.189910@gmx.net> References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net> <20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local> <20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net> <20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local> <20071022172945.189910@gmx.net> Message-ID: <20071022185244.GA6183@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 07:29:45PM +0200, Daniel Polak wrote: > I don't know why the transistor was damaged. Maybe it was a ESD damage. yes could be. Once my transistor got damaged from a close lightning hit. There are usually protection diodes in the transistor but the question is if they can handle stronger ESD discharges. CL< > > > > > I solved the problem with a new BF998 Transistor. > > > > And what was it? > > > > CL< > > > > -- > > > -- > Ist Ihr Browser Vista-kompatibel? Jetzt die neuesten > Browser-Versionen downloaden: http://www.gmx.net/de/go/browser > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From petr.cipis at tiscali.cz Mon Oct 22 21:05:49 2007 From: petr.cipis at tiscali.cz (Cipis) Date: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 22:05:49 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RSSI behem provozu References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net><20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local><20071017105328.252340@gmx.net> <20071019083956.317050@gmx.net><20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local><20071022172945.189910@gmx.net> <20071022185244.GA6183@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <000801c814e6$f1006e30$5046a8c0@cipis.net> Ahoj, meril nekdo RSSI behem provozu? Jak moc se lisi od hodnoty v klidu? Cipis From schum at seznam.cz Tue Oct 23 06:58:08 2007 From: schum at seznam.cz (schumann miroslav) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 07:58:08 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RSSI behem provozu References: <20071016201929.151780@gmx.net><20071017065632.GA21936@kestrel.barix.local><20071017105328.252340@gmx.net><20071019083956.317050@gmx.net><20071019173253.GB9037@kestrel.barix.local><20071022172945.189910@gmx.net><20071022185244.GA6183@kestrel.barix.local> <000801c814e6$f1006e30$5046a8c0@cipis.net> Message-ID: <000501c81539$b06fdf60$2101a8c0@mirek> Ahoj meril a rekl bych ze se nelis? Mirek ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cipis" To: "Twibright Ronja" Sent: Monday, October 22, 2007 10:05 PM Subject: [Ronja] RSSI behem provozu > Ahoj, > > meril nekdo RSSI behem provozu? > Jak moc se lisi od hodnoty v klidu? > > Cipis > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja na lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > From clock at twibright.com Tue Oct 23 08:47:42 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 09:47:42 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RSSI behem provozu In-Reply-To: <000801c814e6$f1006e30$5046a8c0@cipis.net> References: <20071022185244.GA6183@kestrel.barix.local> <000801c814e6$f1006e30$5046a8c0@cipis.net> Message-ID: <20071023074742.GA26951@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:05:49PM +0200, Cipis wrote: > Ahoj, > > meril nekdo RSSI behem provozu? > Jak moc se lisi od hodnoty v klidu? Ja si to uz presne nepamatuju, ale myslim ze to je neco jako ze z 500mV to klesne na 400 nebo 350 nebo tak nejak. CL< > > Cipis > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From anmic at fmg.sk Tue Oct 23 14:22:09 2007 From: anmic at fmg.sk (Jan Matyas) Date: Tue, 23 Oct 2007 15:22:09 +0200 Subject: [Ronja] RSSI behem provozu In-Reply-To: <20071023074742.GA26951@kestrel.barix.local> References: <20071022185244.GA6183@kestrel.barix.local> <000801c814e6$f1006e30$5046a8c0@cipis.net> <20071023074742.GA26951@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <471DF581.5030006@fmg.sk> Karel Kulhavy napsal(a): > On Mon, Oct 22, 2007 at 10:05:49PM +0200, Cipis wrote: >> Ahoj, >> >> meril nekdo RSSI behem provozu? >> Jak moc se lisi od hodnoty v klidu? > > Ja si to uz presne nepamatuju, ale myslim ze to je neco jako ze z 500mV > to klesne na 400 nebo 350 nebo tak nejak. > Mam podobne zkusenosti; vim ze pri pruchodu dat se napeti na RSSI snizilo, presna cisla si ale nepamatuju. Jan Matyas From lepiaf at bgwireless.net Sun Oct 28 22:21:22 2007 From: lepiaf at bgwireless.net (Vladimir Obradovic) Date: Sun, 28 Oct 2007 23:21:22 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? Message-ID: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net> Howdy, does anyone have experience in connecting Ronja Twister to Routerboard or Wrap engines running Mikrotiks RouterOS? thnx, LePiaf From santiago at crfreenet.org Mon Oct 29 20:46:58 2007 From: santiago at crfreenet.org (Ondrej Zajicek) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:46:58 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? In-Reply-To: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net> References: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net> Message-ID: <20071029204658.GA1460@localhost.localdomain> On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 11:21:22PM +0100, Vladimir Obradovic wrote: > Howdy, > > does anyone have experience in connecting Ronja Twister to Routerboard > or Wrap engines running Mikrotiks RouterOS? We used Ronja Twister with Wrap running regular Linux without any problems for years. -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Ondrej 'SanTiago' Zajicek (email: santiago at crfreenet.org, jabber: santiago at njs.netlab.cz) OpenPGP encrypted e-mails preferred (KeyID 0x11DEADC3, wwwkeys.pgp.net) "To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20071029/8ddfeeb0/attachment.bin From clock at twibright.com Mon Oct 29 20:51:40 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 21:51:40 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? In-Reply-To: <20071029204658.GA1460@localhost.localdomain> References: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net> <20071029204658.GA1460@localhost.localdomain> Message-ID: <20071029205140.GA18199@kestrel.barix.local> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 09:46:58PM +0100, Ondrej Zajicek wrote: > On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 11:21:22PM +0100, Vladimir Obradovic wrote: > > Howdy, > > > > does anyone have experience in connecting Ronja Twister to Routerboard > > or Wrap engines running Mikrotiks RouterOS? > > We used Ronja Twister with Wrap running regular Linux without any > problems for years. Was it with the internal National DP83816 network card or did you have an external one in the miniPCI slot (if it exists at all)? BTW Wrap is not manufactured anymore now there is a new platform called Alix which has Via VT6105M network cards. There can be basically two problems - lacking support of manual full duplex in the driver (can be solved theiretically in software). Another is if the network card has a sloppy implementation of clock recovery which is sensitive to jitter in the signal - then the range is reduced. CL< > > -- > Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo > > Ondrej 'SanTiago' Zajicek (email: santiago at crfreenet.org, jabber: santiago at njs.netlab.cz) > OpenPGP encrypted e-mails preferred (KeyID 0x11DEADC3, wwwkeys.pgp.net) > "To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so." > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From santiago at crfreenet.org Mon Oct 29 21:09:48 2007 From: santiago at crfreenet.org (Ondrej Zajicek) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 22:09:48 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? In-Reply-To: <20071029205140.GA18199@kestrel.barix.local> References: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net> <20071029204658.GA1460@localhost.localdomain> <20071029205140.GA18199@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <20071029210948.GA2501@localhost.localdomain> On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 09:51:40PM +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > We used Ronja Twister with Wrap running regular Linux without any > > problems for years. > > Was it with the internal National DP83816 network card or did you have an > external one in the miniPCI slot (if it exists at all)? With integrated network card (i think it was that you mentioned). -- Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo Ondrej 'SanTiago' Zajicek (email: santiago at crfreenet.org, jabber: santiago at njs.netlab.cz) OpenPGP encrypted e-mails preferred (KeyID 0x11DEADC3, wwwkeys.pgp.net) "To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so." -------------- next part -------------- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: not available Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 197 bytes Desc: Digital signature Url : http://pointless.net/pipermail/ronja/attachments/20071029/e027d4ab/attachment.bin From cd930 at centrum.cz Mon Oct 29 22:53:00 2007 From: cd930 at centrum.cz (CD930) Date: Mon, 29 Oct 2007 23:53:00 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? References: <1224252899.20071028232122@bgwireless.net><20071029204658.GA1460@localhost.localdomain> <20071029205140.GA18199@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <001801c81a7e$74fe6650$0101a8c0@Martindoma> Jedna vec Karle. Primo na MB Wrapu je 93c46 (Wrap od http://www.i4shop.net/cz/iObchod/Catalog.asp?ca=1626&it=9262 ) a u Alixu (http://www.pcengines.ch/alix2c0.htm) 2x 93c66. Kazdy NIC cipset potrebuje jednu EEPROM. Neni problem vyletovat tenhle svab a zmenit na druhe radce, ze NIC ma byt jen 10/FD. Kdyz jsem mel onehda problem s Linuxem (jak u nej nastavit 10/FD), tak bylo pro me jednodussi 3COMku nastavit takto. See: http://www.ok1mjo.com/all/wifi/3C90x_sitovka/ Tady je videt MAC (010078A5A7E2): http://www.ok1mjo.com/all/wifi/3C90x_sitovka/3c900tpo.png B710 (fialova) znamena 10/FD a modra je CRC. Takhle by to slo nastavit "natvrdo" u vsech NIC napric vsemi OS. Martin ----- Original Message ----- From: "Karel Kulhavy" To: "Twibright Ronja" Sent: Monday, October 29, 2007 9:51 PM Subject: Re: [Ronja] Ronja on Routerboard/Wrap? > On Mon, Oct 29, 2007 at 09:46:58PM +0100, Ondrej Zajicek wrote: >> On Sun, Oct 28, 2007 at 11:21:22PM +0100, Vladimir Obradovic wrote: >> > Howdy, >> > >> > does anyone have experience in connecting Ronja Twister to Routerboard >> > or Wrap engines running Mikrotiks RouterOS? >> >> We used Ronja Twister with Wrap running regular Linux without any >> problems for years. > > Was it with the internal National DP83816 network card or did you have an > external one in the miniPCI slot (if it exists at all)? > > BTW Wrap is not manufactured anymore now there is a new platform called > Alix > which has Via VT6105M network cards. > > There can be basically two problems - lacking support of manual full > duplex in > the driver (can be solved theiretically in software). Another is if the > network > card has a sloppy implementation of clock recovery which is sensitive to > jitter > in the signal - then the range is reduced. > > CL< >> >> -- >> Elen sila lumenn' omentielvo >> >> Ondrej 'SanTiago' Zajicek (email: santiago na crfreenet.org, jabber: >> santiago na njs.netlab.cz) >> OpenPGP encrypted e-mails preferred (KeyID 0x11DEADC3, wwwkeys.pgp.net) >> "To err is human -- to blame it on a computer is even more so." > > > >> -- >> Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com >> Ronja na lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja na lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja > > From clock at twibright.com Tue Oct 30 14:06:25 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 15:06:25 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Nice Work In-Reply-To: <1193742497.2689.3.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> References: <1193742497.2689.3.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> Message-ID: <20071030140624.GA24423@kestrel.barix.local> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 12:08:17PM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > Hi people, > > Thank's for good work. I wonder is it possible to use Luxeon 1W insted > HPWT-BD00-E4000? I think that it's mutch brighter. No. CL< From alecjw at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 17:02:12 2007 From: alecjw at gmail.com (Alec Wright) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 17:02:12 +0000 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions Message-ID: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> Hi, I'm thinking of making a RONJA but I have a few questions: 1. Do I need any PCBs at all, or can i just airwire everything? 2. I can't find anyone who sells 74HC133s required for the twister2. Would it be OK to do this instead? http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5181/mmhs9.jpg 3. Could I increase the range by adding more ultra bright LEDs and using different lenses? I'm hoping for about a 4km range (!!) 4. How high am I likely to have to put a RONJA to go over about 4km of city, with no skyscrapers (max of about 3 storey buildings)? Or is RONJA designed to go over things like fields, lakes, rivers etc? Thanks, Alec Wright From clock at twibright.com Tue Oct 30 19:53:41 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:53:41 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions In-Reply-To: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> References: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> Message-ID: <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 05:02:12PM +0000, Alec Wright wrote: > Hi, I'm thinking of making a RONJA but I have a few questions: > > 1. Do I need any PCBs at all, or can i just airwire everything? You should have a PCB for Twister or Twister2. Transmitter and RX aren't so critical. > > 2. I can't find anyone who sells 74HC133s required for the twister2. > Would it be OK to do this instead? > http://img80.imageshack.us/img80/5181/mmhs9.jpg If it's wired logically correctly (I didn't check) then yes - what's happening there with the 133's and the following 32 and 00 is that 17 wires are AND-ed together. You can use a different method to achieve the same logical result. Just if some wires encounter longer propagation path in your replacement circuit, hook them to the 4040 outputs that are lower on the schematic. Since if the number in these counters increments, the bits flip consecutively from top to bottom and the whole logic is designed with this assumption. If this is not met, it could produce glitches - or at least require some thinking to prove that it won't glitch. > > 3. Could I increase the range by adding more ultra bright LEDs and using > different lenses? I'm hoping for about a 4km range (!!) No - only one LED can be in the focus of a lens. > > 4. How high am I likely to have to put a RONJA to go over about 4km of > city, with no skyscrapers (max of about 3 storey buildings)? Or is RONJA > designed to go over things like fields, lakes, rivers etc? I guess it may work, but only in night and when there is no fog. It doesn't matter over what it goes unless it's just above a hot tin roof or through a large amount of smoke (one white chimney plume doesn't seem to cause trouble). >From rough estimations I did by covering part of the Ronja lens, it seems that the range during clear night is 3 times more than the nominal range. CL< > > Thanks, > Alec Wright > > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From alecjw at gmail.com Tue Oct 30 20:57:41 2007 From: alecjw at gmail.com (Alec Wright) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 20:57:41 +0000 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions In-Reply-To: <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> References: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 20:53 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > You should have a PCB for Twister or Twister2. Transmitter and RX aren't > so critical. > > If it's wired logically correctly (I didn't check) then yes - what's happening > there with the 133's and the following 32 and 00 is that 17 wires are AND-ed > together. You can use a different method to achieve the same logical result. > Just if some wires encounter longer propagation path in your replacement > circuit, hook them to the 4040 outputs that are lower on the schematic. Since > if the number in these counters increments, the bits flip consecutively from > top to bottom and the whole logic is designed with this assumption. If > this is not met, it could produce glitches - or at least require some > thinking to prove that it won't glitch. Thanks :) > > > > 3. Could I increase the range by adding more ultra bright LEDs and using > > different lenses? I'm hoping for about a 4km range (!!) > > No - only one LED can be in the focus of a lens. How about a single ultra bright one? http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?tier1=Electronic +Components&tier2=Optoelectronics&tier3=Power+LEDs&tier4=3W+Power +LED&moduleno=74700#techspec The above is 75 lumen, which is colossal compared to the 3.8 lumen one which is recommended in the guide. This will probably violate eye safety laws, but oh well :) I might even be able to get a neon light in. And I know I'll need to put a few more transistors in it to power the 0.7A LED too. From asteri_x at freemail.hu Tue Oct 30 21:41:11 2007 From: asteri_x at freemail.hu (=?UTF-8?B?R3l1cmvDsyBNYXJ0aW4=?=) Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2007 22:41:11 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions In-Reply-To: <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> References: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> Message-ID: <4727A4F7.8000005@freemail.hu> The LED also has to be able to be modulated at 20 MHz frequencies. Brightness alone does not help. If someone could try out all those red star luxeons going at 1W, wether they are fast enough, that would be nice. But eye safety is still not an "oh well". If it is your own eye, do it. But you can not guarrantee that birds and children etc. are not looking into the beam. Martin Alec Wright ?rta: > On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 20:53 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > >> You should have a PCB for Twister or Twister2. Transmitter and RX aren't >> so critical. >> >> If it's wired logically correctly (I didn't check) then yes - what's happening >> there with the 133's and the following 32 and 00 is that 17 wires are AND-ed >> together. You can use a different method to achieve the same logical result. >> Just if some wires encounter longer propagation path in your replacement >> circuit, hook them to the 4040 outputs that are lower on the schematic. Since >> if the number in these counters increments, the bits flip consecutively from >> top to bottom and the whole logic is designed with this assumption. If >> this is not met, it could produce glitches - or at least require some >> thinking to prove that it won't glitch. >> > Thanks :) > >>> >>> 3. Could I increase the range by adding more ultra bright LEDs and using >>> different lenses? I'm hoping for about a 4km range (!!) >>> >> No - only one LED can be in the focus of a lens. >> > How about a single ultra bright one? > http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?tier1=Electronic > +Components&tier2=Optoelectronics&tier3=Power+LEDs&tier4=3W+Power > +LED&moduleno=74700#techspec > The above is 75 lumen, which is colossal compared to the 3.8 lumen one > which is recommended in the guide. This will probably violate eye safety > laws, but oh well :) > I might even be able to get a neon light in. > And I know I'll need to put a few more transistors in it to power the > 0.7A LED too. > > > From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 31 08:50:53 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 09:50:53 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions In-Reply-To: <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> References: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> Message-ID: <20071031085053.GA14676@kestrel.barix.local> On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 08:57:41PM +0000, Alec Wright wrote: > On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 20:53 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > You should have a PCB for Twister or Twister2. Transmitter and RX aren't > > so critical. > > > > If it's wired logically correctly (I didn't check) then yes - what's happening > > there with the 133's and the following 32 and 00 is that 17 wires are AND-ed > > together. You can use a different method to achieve the same logical result. > > Just if some wires encounter longer propagation path in your replacement > > circuit, hook them to the 4040 outputs that are lower on the schematic. Since > > if the number in these counters increments, the bits flip consecutively from > > top to bottom and the whole logic is designed with this assumption. If > > this is not met, it could produce glitches - or at least require some > > thinking to prove that it won't glitch. > Thanks :) > > > > > > 3. Could I increase the range by adding more ultra bright LEDs and using > > > different lenses? I'm hoping for about a 4km range (!!) > > > > No - only one LED can be in the focus of a lens. > How about a single ultra bright one? > http://www.rapidonline.com/productinfo.aspx?tier1=Electronic > +Components&tier2=Optoelectronics&tier3=Power+LEDs&tier4=3W+Power > +LED&moduleno=74700#techspec No the current Ronja design is not suitable for this type of LED. CL< > The above is 75 lumen, which is colossal compared to the 3.8 lumen one > which is recommended in the guide. This will probably violate eye safety > laws, but oh well :) > I might even be able to get a neon light in. > And I know I'll need to put a few more transistors in it to power the > 0.7A LED too. > > > -- > Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com > Ronja at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 31 09:14:11 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:14:11 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Nice Work In-Reply-To: <1193813044.2689.15.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> References: <1193742497.2689.3.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> <20071030140624.GA24423@kestrel.barix.local> <1193813044.2689.15.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> Message-ID: <20071031091411.GD14676@kestrel.barix.local> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 07:44:04AM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > Hi, > > Why? The electonic design (Metropolis) can be (at the first look) > easyly changed, and the head can be modified (there is coupling lens for > 40 degres) so the initial model can be used. As I see the luxeon(r) 1W > have about 60lm = 158 cd on omega=0,38 sr = 40 deg .Ofcourse coupling > lens have some fadding but it's small. What you think about this? I don't have to think about this anymore we did some optical prototype and measured it that it will have a range of 3.0km - now it's a matter of it coming to the top of the todo list, not a matter of design. CL< > > Vladimir Petrovic > On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 15:06 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 12:08:17PM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > > > Hi people, > > > > > > Thank's for good work. I wonder is it possible to use Luxeon 1W insted > > > HPWT-BD00-E4000? I think that it's mutch brighter. > > > > No. > > > > CL< From arunk at speedpost.net Wed Oct 31 09:41:24 2007 From: arunk at speedpost.net (Arun Krishnan) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 15:11:24 +0530 Subject: [Ronja] Nice Work In-Reply-To: <20071031091411.GD14676@kestrel.barix.local> References: <1193742497.2689.3.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> <20071030140624.GA24423@kestrel.barix.local> <1193813044.2689.15.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> <20071031091411.GD14676@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <1193823684.28746.1218771351@webmail.messagingengine.com> The Luxeon LED is much slower than the HPWT ones. You need a different driving mechanism. I've been experimenting with the design Clock used for the IR TX and I haven't had much success yet. Regards, Arun ----- Original message ----- From: "Karel Kulhavy" To: "Vladimir Petrovic" Cc: "Twibright Ronja" Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:14:11 +0100 Subject: Re: [Ronja] Nice Work On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 07:44:04AM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > Hi, > > Why? The electonic design (Metropolis) can be (at the first look) > easyly changed, and the head can be modified (there is coupling lens for > 40 degres) so the initial model can be used. As I see the luxeon(r) 1W > have about 60lm = 158 cd on omega=0,38 sr = 40 deg .Ofcourse coupling > lens have some fadding but it's small. What you think about this? I don't have to think about this anymore we did some optical prototype and measured it that it will have a range of 3.0km - now it's a matter of it coming to the top of the todo list, not a matter of design. CL< > > Vladimir Petrovic > On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 15:06 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 12:08:17PM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > > > Hi people, > > > > > > Thank's for good work. I wonder is it possible to use Luxeon 1W insted > > > HPWT-BD00-E4000? I think that it's mutch brighter. > > > > No. > > > > CL< -- Twibright Ronja mailing list http://ronja.twibright.com Ronja at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/ronja From clock at twibright.com Wed Oct 31 12:26:06 2007 From: clock at twibright.com (Karel Kulhavy) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 13:26:06 +0100 Subject: [Ronja] Nice Work In-Reply-To: <1193824145.2689.18.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> References: <1193742497.2689.3.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> <20071030140624.GA24423@kestrel.barix.local> <1193813044.2689.15.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> <20071031091411.GD14676@kestrel.barix.local> <1193824145.2689.18.camel@petrovicv.elektromreza> Message-ID: <20071031122606.GA9898@kestrel.barix.local> On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 10:49:05AM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > > Range is 3.0km with luxeon 1W or 3W? That was 3W I think. Definitely not 5W. CL< > > On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 10:14 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > On Wed, Oct 31, 2007 at 07:44:04AM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > > > Why? The electonic design (Metropolis) can be (at the first look) > > > easyly changed, and the head can be modified (there is coupling lens for > > > 40 degres) so the initial model can be used. As I see the luxeon(r) 1W > > > have about 60lm = 158 cd on omega=0,38 sr = 40 deg .Ofcourse coupling > > > lens have some fadding but it's small. What you think about this? > > > > I don't have to think about this anymore we did some optical prototype and > > measured it that it will have a range of 3.0km - now it's a matter of it coming > > to the top of the todo list, not a matter of design. > > > > CL< > > > > > > Vladimir Petrovic > > > On Tue, 2007-10-30 at 15:06 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > > > > On Tue, Oct 30, 2007 at 12:08:17PM +0100, Vladimir Petrovic wrote: > > > > > Hi people, > > > > > > > > > > Thank's for good work. I wonder is it possible to use Luxeon 1W insted > > > > > HPWT-BD00-E4000? I think that it's mutch brighter. > > > > > > > > No. > > > > > > > > CL< From alecjw at gmail.com Wed Oct 31 23:46:42 2007 From: alecjw at gmail.com (Alec Wright) Date: Wed, 31 Oct 2007 23:46:42 +0000 Subject: [Ronja] A few questions In-Reply-To: <20071031085053.GA14676@kestrel.barix.local> References: <1193763732.6197.21.camel@Apollo> <20071030195341.GA10069@kestrel.barix.local> <1193777861.6197.29.camel@Apollo> <20071031085053.GA14676@kestrel.barix.local> Message-ID: <1193874402.6462.2.camel@Apollo> On Wed, 2007-10-31 at 09:50 +0100, Karel Kulhavy wrote: > No the current Ronja design is not suitable for this type of LED. Are any other LEDs at all acceptable then? Or can it only be the specified one? I don't mind putting a few transistors in for the higher power consumption, or changing the lens for the different viewing angle. Cheers Alec Wright