From goot at the-crow.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:07:06 2006 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:07:06 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? Message-ID: <47211.212.248.237.101.1136293626.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Hi All, I'll start off by wishing you all a Happy New Year. It has been very quiet of late on the mailing list, so I hope there are still a few techies out there still reading posts :) Any non-techies, don't be shy, come on and say hello :) Warrington Wireless, hit a problem over the past few weeks. Wireless connectivity between the 3 external routers (WDS mode) was becoming very problematic. Checked the usual, then went for a drive with NetStumbler. The previous problem router was resolved, but now a new AP is being picked up with some very high SNR figures. Basically, its been killing our connection :( Sat at Ch6, it's running in SuperG/the other competitors thingy! Haven't located the house yet, but narrowed it down to which side of the road. However, after some clever channel hopping, we seem to be running ok as of 58 mins ago :) My question though. SuperG runs on Ch6 (main, plus bits of other channels) We are possibly thinking of extending the network, using the existing WRT54G as separate networks and replacing with WRT54GS's at roof level. If were were to use SuperG can the other SuperG network in the road co-exist? It's causing interference at roof level between ch1-10, so if we were both SuperG at Ch6 would it work, or will interference problems greatly increase? Regards Andy :) From hick.w.manchester at gink.org Tue Jan 3 13:17:23 2006 From: hick.w.manchester at gink.org (gARetH baBB) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:17:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? In-Reply-To: <47211.212.248.237.101.1136293626.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <47211.212.248.237.101.1136293626.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Andy Gauton wrote: > My question though. SuperG runs on Ch6 (main, plus bits of other channels) > We are possibly thinking of extending the network, using the existing > WRT54G as separate networks and replacing with WRT54GS's at roof level. If > were were to use SuperG can the other SuperG network in the road co-exist? I think we've been through this before - SuperG is a propietary Atheros based system, WRTs use Broadcom. > It's causing interference at roof level between ch1-10, so if we were > both SuperG at Ch6 would it work, or will interference problems greatly > increase? Very likely - probably time to start investigating 802.11a, you're going to need to pay for a licence but it's looking like you have no other choice. From ged at jubileegroup.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:26:23 2006 From: ged at jubileegroup.co.uk (G.W. Haywood) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:26:23 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? In-Reply-To: References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi Andy, On Tue, 3 Jan 2006, Andy Gauton wrote: > ...Happy New Year. Same to you, and all! > Warrington Wireless, hit a problem over the past few weeks. :( > a new AP is being picked up ... killing our connection :( :( > However, after some clever channel hopping, we seem to be running ok as of > 58 mins ago :) :) > If were were to use SuperG can the other SuperG network in the road co-exist? > It's causing interference at roof level between ch1-10, so if we were both > SuperG at Ch6 would it work, or will interference problems greatly increase? No idea. Much more information needed. Did you do any of the things I suggested in my list of 27 October 2005? 73, Ged. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, G.W. Haywood wrote: > On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Andy Gauton wrote: > > > Warrington Wireless celebrated it's 1yr anniversary of success. > > :) > > > Over a 12 month period ... only a couple of minor issues - solved by > > router reboot, usually remotely using Telnet :) > > Telnet!???!!! For goodness' sake junk it and use SSH! > > > However, just as we were about to celebrate ... the network has been > > experiencing some major problems ... started noticing serious bandwidth > > issues ... recently 15k ... 900k, with the occasional 2MB+ > > > Went round the road with a laptop... VERY STRONG BT Voyager router > > signal on Ch8 ... Figures to be released once testing has been done > > over the next few days. > > > > Your thoughts please. > > It's not just a matter of telling the devices which other devices they > should listen to, and which they should ignore, is it? There is still > a clear line of sight between the antennae? Nobody put a new extension > on their bathroom or anything? > > Other thoughts: > > 1. Set up something to measure your signal strengths continuously. See > for example http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/radio/powerbudget.html which > shows some snow on an antenna, and if you think that the leaves on trees > won't matter see http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/radio/tree_trimmings.gif > which shows the result of trimming a cherry tree (twice, on July 24 and > August 21). Also you'll see the effect of the sun shining on the black > plastic box which contains the APs atop the mast in our installation - > AP manufacturers don't seem to mention temperature coefficients much in > their literature... Incidentally I'd expect you to see better results > in cooler parts of the year, other things being as equal as possible. > Which they won't be, of course. > 2. Write down some numbers for all the component parts. For example "At > 20 deg. C we have +14dB from AP number 1, its sensitivity is -85dB, the > antenna is a 16dB omni, there is about a 10dB loss between the connector > on the antenna and the connector on the AP, the free space loss between > AP1 and AP2 is -82dB because it's a distance of xxx.x metres." > 3. Write down some more numbers for signals received from each AP by the > other APs - and while you're at it, for signals received from elsewhere. > 4. Don't imagine that ANY of your numbers will be constant, except maybe > for the speed of light in vacuo. > 4. Given the collection of numbers, decide what you think should happen. > 5. If it's not happening: > 6. Check the equipment performance, losses in the cables, connectors etc. > 7. Try changing the antenna polarization. > 8. Try using more directional/better antennae (my personal favourite.) > 9. http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/intro.htm (just found it, looks useful). > > Let us know how you get on? > > 73, > Ged. > > PS: Fill in the xxx above - that's a little test. > From goot at the-crow.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:34:54 2006 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:34:54 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? In-Reply-To: References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <52949.212.248.237.101.1136295294.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> On Tue, January 3, 2006 13:26, G.W. Haywood said: > No idea. Much more information needed. Did you do any of the things > I suggested in my list of 27 October 2005? Due to time constraints with work and personal committments, we had to use the approach "if it isn't broke, don't go tinkering approach" :( Time again is against us (I'm starting to sound like Darren!!) so is pretty much on the back burner for investigatiion work. However, at this current moment in time, the only problems we are experiencing is interference from nearby wireless networks, and this has been proved by channel hopping through the spectrum. Retailers seem to be really pushing wireless this Xmas/New Year that it won't be long until we are fully congested in the road. The number of wireless networks has almost trippled in the last few months. Andy :) From goot at the-crow.co.uk Tue Jan 3 13:39:47 2006 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Tue, 3 Jan 2006 13:39:47 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? In-Reply-To: References: <47211.212.248.237.101.1136293626.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <53650.212.248.237.101.1136295587.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> On Tue, January 3, 2006 13:17, gARetH baBB said: > I think we've been through this before - SuperG is a propietary Atheros > based system, WRTs use Broadcom. Sorry, we have. I was being lazy :( > Very likely - probably time to start investigating 802.11a, you're going > to need to pay for a licence but it's looking like you have no other > choice. Thanks for that. We will keep fighting until the bitter end :) Now, to try and convince the other router owner to drop down to 54MB and change channel. How does Pre-N / MIMO fit into the wireless scene? Is this going to cause even more problems? Andy :) From colinj at mx5.org.uk Tue Jan 3 18:45:09 2006 From: colinj at mx5.org.uk (Colin Johnston) Date: Tue, 03 Jan 2006 18:45:09 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Could Warrington Wireless go SuperG? In-Reply-To: <47211.212.248.237.101.1136293626.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi all, Had to fix some wireless stuff in Daresbury today, hopefully this is not conflicting, shout if problems Colin Johnston Halton Housing Trust From gdh at laterooms.com Wed Jan 4 14:04:13 2006 From: gdh at laterooms.com (Gavin Hamill) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 14:04:13 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Wifi contractors in the north-west Message-ID: <43BBD5DD.40300@laterooms.com> Hi :) Is there anyone who does wifi consultancy in the north-west? We're trying to link two sites together with fibre, but having some probs, so I want to look into wifi as a backup. There is line-of-sight, across a car park (maybe 300m?) and we've been using two domestic 3Com 54G Access Points, with the hope of making one talk to the other. I've set them up for WDS (i.e. a repeatered system) and this works in the office, but the distance with the standard antennae is just too great. I guess we need someone who can specify antennae and wall-mount them and run cabling in a kosher way - any takers? :) Cheers, Gavin. From muchmorebeer at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 4 14:44:17 2006 From: muchmorebeer at yahoo.co.uk (simon roberts) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 06:44:17 -0800 (PST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Wifi contractors in the north-west In-Reply-To: <43BBD5DD.40300@laterooms.com> Message-ID: <20060104144417.65371.qmail@web25013.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> Sounds a doddle ! I know lots of folk who do this but it depends on how much you have to spend ! S Gavin Hamill wrote: Hi :) Is there anyone who does wifi consultancy in the north-west? We're trying to link two sites together with fibre, but having some probs, so I want to look into wifi as a backup. There is line-of-sight, across a car park (maybe 300m?) and we've been using two domestic 3Com 54G Access Points, with the hope of making one talk to the other. I've set them up for WDS (i.e. a repeatered system) and this works in the office, but the distance with the standard antennae is just too great. I guess we need someone who can specify antennae and wall-mount them and run cabling in a kosher way - any takers? :) Cheers, Gavin. _______________________________________________ ManchesterWireless mailing list ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless --------------------------------- Yahoo! Photos Ring in the New Year with Photo Calendars. Add photos, events, holidays, whatever. -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/manchesterwireless/attachments/20060104/66a2f98a/attachment.html From gdh at laterooms.com Wed Jan 4 15:04:14 2006 From: gdh at laterooms.com (Gavin Hamill) Date: Wed, 04 Jan 2006 15:04:14 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Wifi contractors in the north-west Message-ID: <43BBE3EE.5080402@laterooms.com> > > Sounds a doddle ! > I know lots of folk who do this but it depends on how much you have to > spend ! > S Gah, OK the goalposts have been moved on me again - turns out they just want SDSL installed in the other site instead - very dull :/ Ah well, not to worry. Cheers, Gavin. From muchmorebeer at yahoo.co.uk Wed Jan 4 15:08:26 2006 From: muchmorebeer at yahoo.co.uk (simon roberts) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 07:08:26 -0800 (PST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Wifi contractors in the north-west In-Reply-To: <43BBE3EE.5080402@laterooms.com> Message-ID: <20060104150826.67657.qmail@web25008.mail.ukl.yahoo.com> hehe Still you could offer wireless access to your punters! S Gavin Hamill wrote: > > Sounds a doddle ! > I know lots of folk who do this but it depends on how much you have to > spend ! > S Gah, OK the goalposts have been moved on me again - turns out they just want SDSL installed in the other site instead - very dull :/ Ah well, not to worry. Cheers, Gavin. _______________________________________________ ManchesterWireless mailing list ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless --------------------------------- Yahoo! DSL Something to write home about. Just $16.99/mo. or less -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/manchesterwireless/attachments/20060104/7a2b2592/attachment.html From ged at jubileegroup.co.uk Wed Jan 4 16:31:25 2006 From: ged at jubileegroup.co.uk (G.W. Haywood) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 16:31:25 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Wifi contractors in the north-west In-Reply-To: <43BBD5DD.40300@laterooms.com> References: <43BBD5DD.40300@laterooms.com> Message-ID: Hi there, On Wed, 4 Jan 2006, Gavin Hamill wrote: > Is there anyone who does wifi consultancy in the north-west? Depends on your definition of north-west. :) > trying to link two sites together with fibre, but having some probs Digging the trench is usually the biggest problem. Then keeping the water out (of the fibre). > so I want to look into wifi as a backup. OK if you don't mind slumming it at 54Mbit/s. :) > There is line-of-sight, across a car park (maybe 300m?) and we've been > using two domestic 3Com 54G Access Points, with the hope of making one > talk to the other. With the little whips that come with most kit you'll be struggling at that distance if there's any interference, or any attenuation by the building materials etc. but it's just about possible. For one of my links of about 350m I use a cantenna (strictly it's a "whiskytenna" see http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/radio/whisky_in_use.jpg for a shot of the actual device in use:) at one end and the whip at the other. My estimate of the cantenna gain is about 8dBi. You'll probably manage with a bit less, but I'd look for about that (if it's just at one end) or about four or five dBi at both ends. > I guess we need someone who can specify antennae and wall-mount > them and run cabling in a kosher way - any takers? :) A small 'patch' antenna will probably do - they're very cheap, why not just get one and try it? 73, Ged. From r at schestowitz.com Thu Jan 5 05:19:22 2006 From: r at schestowitz.com (Roy Schestowitz) Date: Thu, 05 Jan 2006 05:19:22 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Manchester Wi-Fi Cloud Message-ID: <20060105051922.8h5coi3rsq2sk880@banana.catalyst2.com> Published yesterday. http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/technology/s/197/ ... 197550_hotzones_head_for_manchester.html?rss=yes or shorter: http://snipurl.com/lau9 MANCHESTER is one of nine UK cities to get blanket wireless coverage a part of a deal between Wi-Fi operator The Cloud and telecoms leader BT. [...] -- Roy S. Schestowitz http://Schestowitz.com | SuSE Linux | PGP-Key: 0x74572E8E 5:15am up 25 days 12:26, 10 users, load average: 0.68, 0.49, 0.45 From Andy at atitsolutions.co.uk Wed Jan 4 12:28:07 2006 From: Andy at atitsolutions.co.uk (Andy Taylor) Date: Wed, 4 Jan 2006 12:28:07 -0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless Message-ID: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> Hi all, been on the list for a while but this is my 1st post. Just moved into the Warrington area and im trying to find out more about the Warrington Wireless project. would like to get involved if possible. Andy -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://pointless.net/pipermail/manchesterwireless/attachments/20060104/9f007a7e/attachment.html From harry at shoka.net Sun Jan 8 23:25:09 2006 From: harry at shoka.net (Harry Moyes) Date: Sun, 08 Jan 2006 23:25:09 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless In-Reply-To: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> References: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> Message-ID: <1136762709.11269.63.camel@shoka.local.shoka.net> On Wed, 2006-01-04 at 12:28 +0000, Andy Taylor wrote: > Hi all, > > been on the list for a while but this is my 1st post. > > Just moved into the Warrington area and im trying to find out more > about the Warrington Wireless project. would like to get involved if > possible. > > Andy And as part of my good intentions for the year I've cleared the spam trap on pointless.net, our mail system. So happy new year to all, and Andy, you probably posted from an email address other than the one you subscribed by. It got trapped in the filter along with a couple of hundred "offers I cannot refuse" ... Mail me direct if this is not the case and I'll try and sort it out. Harry From goot at the-crow.co.uk Mon Jan 9 10:32:49 2006 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:32:49 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless In-Reply-To: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> References: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> Message-ID: <5542.212.248.237.101.1136802769.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Hi Andy, Unfortunately, for the time being, Warrington Wireless is a private network with a select few members, but who knows what the future may bring? We originally planned an open to all network, but costs were massive and everyone wasn't willing to contribute to them. Our idea was non-profit making, but shared costs, so the members we currently have all contribute to it's running. Whereabouts in Warrington do you live? There was some activity with various people around Warrington wanting to link up, but Line Of Sight was a big issue and never got off the ground. Regards Andy :) On Wed, January 4, 2006 12:28, Andy Taylor said: > Hi all, > > been on the list for a while but this is my 1st post. > > Just moved into the Warrington area and im trying to find out more about > the Warrington Wireless project. would like to get involved if possible. > > Andy > _______________________________________________ > ManchesterWireless mailing list > ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless > -- From jgxhs at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Mon Jan 9 18:14:35 2006 From: jgxhs at nessie.mcc.ac.uk (John Greenwood) Date: Mon, 09 Jan 2006 18:14:35 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless In-Reply-To: <5542.212.248.237.101.1136802769.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> <5542.212.248.237.101.1136802769.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: Andy, What costs do you have save for the individual costs each person has for his own equipment? John On Mon, 9 Jan 2006 10:32:49 -0000 (GMT), you wrote: >Hi Andy, > >Unfortunately, for the time being, Warrington Wireless is a private >network with a select few members, but who knows what the future may >bring? We originally planned an open to all network, but costs were >massive and everyone wasn't willing to contribute to them. Our idea was >non-profit making, but shared costs, so the members we currently have all >contribute to it's running. > >Whereabouts in Warrington do you live? There was some activity with >various people around Warrington wanting to link up, but Line Of Sight was >a big issue and never got off the ground. > >Regards >Andy :) > > >On Wed, January 4, 2006 12:28, Andy Taylor said: >> Hi all, >> >> been on the list for a while but this is my 1st post. >> >> Just moved into the Warrington area and im trying to find out more about >> the Warrington Wireless project. would like to get involved if possible. >> >> Andy >> _______________________________________________ >> ManchesterWireless mailing list >> ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless >> From jgxhs at nessie.mcc.ac.uk Tue Jan 10 21:54:26 2006 From: jgxhs at nessie.mcc.ac.uk (John Greenwood) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 21:54:26 +0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Manchester Wi-Fi Cloud In-Reply-To: <20060105051922.8h5coi3rsq2sk880@banana.catalyst2.com> References: <20060105051922.8h5coi3rsq2sk880@banana.catalyst2.com> Message-ID: <38b8s1lv0ldsv2pgi6vanmrnlt5gkje33q@4ax.com> More pollution at a very expensive rate to the end user ?4.50 per hour ouch On Thu, 05 Jan 2006 05:19:22 +0000, you wrote: >Published yesterday. > >http://www.manchesteronline.co.uk/men/news/technology/s/197/ ... >197550_hotzones_head_for_manchester.html?rss=yes > >or shorter: > >http://snipurl.com/lau9 > > MANCHESTER is one of nine UK cities to get blanket wireless coverage a > part of a deal between Wi-Fi operator The Cloud and telecoms leader BT. > > [...] From adam at adamchallis.co.uk Tue Jan 10 23:48:57 2006 From: adam at adamchallis.co.uk (Adam Challis) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:48:57 -0000 Subject: [manchesterwireless] Manchester Wi-Fi Cloud In-Reply-To: <38b8s1lv0ldsv2pgi6vanmrnlt5gkje33q@4ax.com> Message-ID: <007f01c61640$6dbf9d30$0200a8c0@ERNIE> >More pollution at a very expensive rate to the end user ?4.50 per hour ouch Unless you happen to be one of the happy people who use the Nintendo WiFi service for free over it. http://www.nintendowifi.co.uk/global/newsDetails.jsp?articleID=2 Adam C From hick.w.manchester at gink.org Tue Jan 10 23:50:55 2006 From: hick.w.manchester at gink.org (gARetH baBB) Date: Tue, 10 Jan 2006 23:50:55 +0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Manchester Wi-Fi Cloud In-Reply-To: <007f01c61640$6dbf9d30$0200a8c0@ERNIE> References: <007f01c61640$6dbf9d30$0200a8c0@ERNIE> Message-ID: On Tue, 10 Jan 2006, Adam Challis wrote: > Unless you happen to be one of the happy people who use the Nintendo WiFi > service for free over it. Or SkypeZones for something like 10 quid/month. [BTW this isn't an endorsement of Skype by any means ...] From goot at the-crow.co.uk Fri Jan 13 12:17:11 2006 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Fri, 13 Jan 2006 12:17:11 -0000 (GMT) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless In-Reply-To: References: <4C16FDFB16C14944A7B8E7CA0BEC812E47D8@server2k3.ATITSolutions.local> <5542.212.248.237.101.1136802769.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <41736.212.248.237.101.1137154631.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> On Mon, January 9, 2006 18:14, John Greenwood said: > Andy, > What costs do you have save for the individual costs each > person has for his own equipment? The members we currently have are all founder members. Two of us stumped up ?650 initially for a basic wireless network infrastructure (no internet) and then we only supplied and installed the same equipment for everyone, as these mainly the guinea pigs and we wanted to ensure a standard in the beginning. If we were to open membership again, users would be able to use there own equipment but only after we gave it the go ahead, and then any monthly costs split equally between each member. Regards Andy :)