From goot at the-crow.co.uk Thu Oct 27 09:13:33 2005 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 09:13:33 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? Message-ID: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Hi All, Warrington Wireless celebrated it's 1yr anniversary of success. Over a 12 month period, running all 3 routers in WDS mode, they had only a couple of minor issues - solved by router reboot, usually remotely using Telnet :) However, just as we were about to celebrate this achievement in style (champagne cooling nicely), the network has been experiencing some major problems. About 2 weeks ago, I (2 hops away from internet facing router) started noticing serious bandwidth issues. Usual ADSLGUIDE speed test comes in over 2MB, 1MB under load. But recently 15k (yes not a typo!) -> 900k, with the occasional 2MB+ Initially thought it was Les (hop2) using the bandwidth, so we disconnected his home network. Speed test shot up, but only briefly (5 mins) and shot back down. At this point we thought water in the system? But 2 days later, whole network enjoying 2MB+ .... in heavy rain, so that theory out of the window, then back to me getting very poor figures. Then Les experiencing problems. Ping times 10ms to 4885ms, and the net went down. All routers still connected in WDS but signal noise figures for both routers seem to be around the same and quite low - BB (broadband) router is x2 distance that Andy -> Les. Network being: Andy -> <- Les --> BB due to LOS issues. I don't have signal / noise figures to hand. Will post well routers back in lofts. Anyway, last night all 3 routers were pulled down and set back to factoy defaults and reflashed and "kitchen table" tested. Each pinging 2-3ms. Good, so the routers seem OK. Went round the road with a laptop. We were on Ch6 (changed last night to Ch1). Netstumbler picked up a VERY STRONG BT Voyager router signal on Ch8, which seems to be in the path of Andy -> Les. Could this be the cause of the network going up and down like a yoyo? It's 11g, but for the signal to be so strong, I'm wondering whether it's running at 108mb? And I assume this would be created by combining frequency from neighbouring channels? Why would it effect Les -> BB? I'm guessing due to being in WDS mode the 3 routers are classed as one entity? BT Voyager router seems to be always on. I'm guessing when a client is switched on, the signal it emits increases. At a guess, I'd say this router was new (few weeks old), or a change to it has been made recently. Les was doing some monitoring yesterday. I had no net access, Les couldn't even ping me. Les to Steve was 2MS for about 10hrs, then at about 17.30, very poor pings and then network went down and stayed down. My initial thoughts. BT Voyager owners coming home from work and switching wireless PC on? At this point, the signal is so strong it wipes Andy -> Les, and then slowly effects Les -> BB When I say strong signal, no figures on me, but netstumbler real time signal graph was covering 75% of the graph!! This was walking the road between Andy <-> Les ... it was looking like a game of tetris in the last few seconds before you die. Apologies for the lack of figures. The routers have been setup as Ch1 now. Andy and Les are pinging each other (make of that as you wish!) 2ms average. This was at 07.30 this morning. BB router will hopefully be connected up later today.... but I haven't got much faith in the network staying up.... Figures to be released once testing has been done over the next few days. Your thoughts please. Andy :) -- From goot at the-crow.co.uk Thu Oct 27 10:08:45 2005 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:08:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Quick Google search shows the BT Voyager capable of SuperG mode. Just read up on how SuperG is enabled. SuperG bonds with the whole of Ch6, half of Ch1 and half of Ch11 usually, but the whole bonding channel looks like it can be altered (therefore effecting overall performance, if moved away from the 3 separate channels: 1, 6, 11) Now, I can't confirm whether the BT Voyager is running SuperG mode, but this might just explain everthing? Any, thoughts please Regards Andy :) On Thu, October 27, 2005 9:13, Andy Gauton said: > Hi All, > > Warrington Wireless celebrated it's 1yr anniversary of success. Over a 12 > month period, running all 3 routers in WDS mode, they had only a couple of > minor issues - solved by router reboot, usually remotely using Telnet :) > > However, just as we were about to celebrate this achievement in style > (champagne cooling nicely), the network has been experiencing some major > problems. > > About 2 weeks ago, I (2 hops away from internet facing router) started > noticing serious bandwidth issues. Usual ADSLGUIDE speed test comes in > over 2MB, 1MB under load. But recently 15k (yes not a typo!) -> 900k, with > the occasional 2MB+ > > Initially thought it was Les (hop2) using the bandwidth, so we > disconnected his home network. Speed test shot up, but only briefly (5 > mins) and shot back down. At this point we thought water in the system? > But 2 days later, whole network enjoying 2MB+ .... in heavy rain, so that > theory out of the window, then back to me getting very poor figures. Then > Les experiencing problems. Ping times 10ms to 4885ms, and the net went > down. All routers still connected in WDS but signal noise figures for both > routers seem to be around the same and quite low - BB (broadband) router > is x2 distance that Andy -> Les. > > Network being: Andy -> <- Les --> BB due to LOS issues. > > I don't have signal / noise figures to hand. Will post well routers back > in lofts. > > Anyway, last night all 3 routers were pulled down and set back to factoy > defaults and reflashed and "kitchen table" tested. Each pinging 2-3ms. > Good, so the routers seem OK. > > Went round the road with a laptop. We were on Ch6 (changed last night to > Ch1). Netstumbler picked up a VERY STRONG BT Voyager router signal on Ch8, > which seems to be in the path of Andy -> Les. Could this be the cause of > the network going up and down like a yoyo? It's 11g, but for the signal to > be so strong, I'm wondering whether it's running at 108mb? And I assume > this would be created by combining frequency from neighbouring channels? > Why would it effect Les -> BB? I'm guessing due to being in WDS mode the 3 > routers are classed as one entity? > > BT Voyager router seems to be always on. I'm guessing when a client is > switched on, the signal it emits increases. At a guess, I'd say this > router was new (few weeks old), or a change to it has been made recently. > > Les was doing some monitoring yesterday. I had no net access, Les couldn't > even ping me. Les to Steve was 2MS for about 10hrs, then at about 17.30, > very poor pings and then network went down and stayed down. > > My initial thoughts. BT Voyager owners coming home from work and switching > wireless PC on? At this point, the signal is so strong it wipes Andy -> > Les, and then slowly effects Les -> BB > > When I say strong signal, no figures on me, but netstumbler real time > signal graph was covering 75% of the graph!! This was walking the road > between Andy <-> Les ... it was looking like a game of tetris in the > last few seconds before you die. > > Apologies for the lack of figures. The routers have been setup as Ch1 now. > Andy and Les are pinging each other (make of that as you wish!) 2ms > average. This was at 07.30 this morning. BB router will hopefully be > connected up later today.... but I haven't got much faith in the network > staying up.... > > Figures to be released once testing has been done over the next few days. > > Your thoughts please. > > Andy :) > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > ManchesterWireless mailing list > ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless > -- From goot at the-crow.co.uk Thu Oct 27 10:23:45 2005 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:23:45 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <38921.212.248.237.101.1130405025.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Getting mixed reports on SuperG. Some say it can be channel configured, others saying not. Some say it uses 2 full channels, others say 1 and 2 halves. Anyone have the definitive answer? Andy :) On Thu, October 27, 2005 10:08, Andy Gauton said: > Quick Google search shows the BT Voyager capable of SuperG mode. > > Just read up on how SuperG is enabled. SuperG bonds with the whole of Ch6, > half of Ch1 and half of Ch11 usually, but the whole bonding channel looks > like it can be altered (therefore effecting overall performance, if moved > away from the 3 separate channels: 1, 6, 11) > > Now, I can't confirm whether the BT Voyager is running SuperG mode, but > this might just explain everthing? > > Any, thoughts please > Regards > Andy :) > > On Thu, October 27, 2005 9:13, Andy Gauton said: >> Hi All, >> >> Warrington Wireless celebrated it's 1yr anniversary of success. Over a >> 12 >> month period, running all 3 routers in WDS mode, they had only a couple >> of >> minor issues - solved by router reboot, usually remotely using Telnet :) >> >> However, just as we were about to celebrate this achievement in style >> (champagne cooling nicely), the network has been experiencing some major >> problems. >> >> About 2 weeks ago, I (2 hops away from internet facing router) started >> noticing serious bandwidth issues. Usual ADSLGUIDE speed test comes in >> over 2MB, 1MB under load. But recently 15k (yes not a typo!) -> 900k, >> with >> the occasional 2MB+ >> >> Initially thought it was Les (hop2) using the bandwidth, so we >> disconnected his home network. Speed test shot up, but only briefly (5 >> mins) and shot back down. At this point we thought water in the system? >> But 2 days later, whole network enjoying 2MB+ .... in heavy rain, so >> that >> theory out of the window, then back to me getting very poor figures. >> Then >> Les experiencing problems. Ping times 10ms to 4885ms, and the net went >> down. All routers still connected in WDS but signal noise figures for >> both >> routers seem to be around the same and quite low - BB (broadband) router >> is x2 distance that Andy -> Les. >> >> Network being: Andy -> <- Les --> BB due to LOS issues. >> >> I don't have signal / noise figures to hand. Will post well routers back >> in lofts. >> >> Anyway, last night all 3 routers were pulled down and set back to factoy >> defaults and reflashed and "kitchen table" tested. Each pinging 2-3ms. >> Good, so the routers seem OK. >> >> Went round the road with a laptop. We were on Ch6 (changed last night to >> Ch1). Netstumbler picked up a VERY STRONG BT Voyager router signal on >> Ch8, >> which seems to be in the path of Andy -> Les. Could this be the cause of >> the network going up and down like a yoyo? It's 11g, but for the signal >> to >> be so strong, I'm wondering whether it's running at 108mb? And I assume >> this would be created by combining frequency from neighbouring channels? >> Why would it effect Les -> BB? I'm guessing due to being in WDS mode the >> 3 >> routers are classed as one entity? >> >> BT Voyager router seems to be always on. I'm guessing when a client is >> switched on, the signal it emits increases. At a guess, I'd say this >> router was new (few weeks old), or a change to it has been made >> recently. >> >> Les was doing some monitoring yesterday. I had no net access, Les >> couldn't >> even ping me. Les to Steve was 2MS for about 10hrs, then at about 17.30, >> very poor pings and then network went down and stayed down. >> >> My initial thoughts. BT Voyager owners coming home from work and >> switching >> wireless PC on? At this point, the signal is so strong it wipes Andy -> >> Les, and then slowly effects Les -> BB >> >> When I say strong signal, no figures on me, but netstumbler real time >> signal graph was covering 75% of the graph!! This was walking the road >> between Andy <-> Les ... it was looking like a game of tetris in the >> last few seconds before you die. >> >> Apologies for the lack of figures. The routers have been setup as Ch1 >> now. >> Andy and Les are pinging each other (make of that as you wish!) 2ms >> average. This was at 07.30 this morning. BB router will hopefully be >> connected up later today.... but I haven't got much faith in the network >> staying up.... >> >> Figures to be released once testing has been done over the next few >> days. >> >> Your thoughts please. >> >> Andy :) >> >> -- >> >> >> >> _______________________________________________ >> ManchesterWireless mailing list >> ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net >> http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless >> > > > -- > > > > _______________________________________________ > ManchesterWireless mailing list > ManchesterWireless at lists.pointless.net > http://pointless.net/mailman/listinfo/manchesterwireless > -- From hick.w.manchester at gink.org Thu Oct 27 10:24:52 2005 From: hick.w.manchester at gink.org (gARetH baBB) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:24:52 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Andy Gauton wrote: > Just read up on how SuperG is enabled. SuperG bonds with the whole of Ch6, > half of Ch1 and half of Ch11 usually, but the whole bonding channel looks > like it can be altered (therefore effecting overall performance, if moved > away from the 3 separate channels: 1, 6, 11) SuperG doesn't in itself use anymore than whichever channel it's set to, SuperG is frame stuffing, compression etc. SuperG in Turbo mode is "108M" fixed to channel 6 - this is unalterable - and as you say goes into bits of channels 1 and 11. A SuperG device in Static Turbo mode isn't WiFi compatible (though "WiFi" is really a marketing/trade term) - SuperG in Dynamic Turbo mode (if it detects activity in the turbo band it switches down to plain SuperG mode just in channel 6) is "WiFi" compatible. Alot of manufacturers have disabled Static Turbo in their APs because they couldn't use the WiFi trademarks if they didn't. Can you use channel 13 ? From hick.w.manchester at gink.org Thu Oct 27 10:26:30 2005 From: hick.w.manchester at gink.org (gARetH baBB) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:26:30 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <38921.212.248.237.101.1130405025.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <38921.212.248.237.101.1130405025.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Andy Gauton wrote: > Getting mixed reports on SuperG. Some say it can be channel configured, > others saying not. Some say it uses 2 full channels, others say 1 and 2 > halves. Anyone have the definitive answer? http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article59-page5.php From goot at the-crow.co.uk Thu Oct 27 10:31:24 2005 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:31:24 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <38921.212.248.237.101.1130405025.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <40134.212.248.237.101.1130405484.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> On Thu, October 27, 2005 10:26, gARetH baBB said: > http://www.tomsnetworking.com/Sections-article59-page5.php Good old TomsHardware. I must have missed that report. Thanks Andy :) From goot at the-crow.co.uk Thu Oct 27 10:40:37 2005 From: goot at the-crow.co.uk (Andy Gauton) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:40:37 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: <41414.212.248.237.101.1130406037.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> On Thu, October 27, 2005 10:24, gARetH baBB said: > Can you use channel 13 ? I can give it a go. There are quite a large number of networks at BB's location running Ch11 (including BB's own internal wireless network). Will Ch13 be far enough away from Ch11 to avoid interference? My own understanding to minimise interference was to use on a non-overlapping channel (1, 6 or 11).. not taking SuperG into consideration. However, BT Voyager in NetStumbler is reporting Ch8, but very strong signal. So, either this is correct, or this is SuperG misreporting? The ideal solution would be to find BT Voyager neighbour and see if we can change his/her channel to a non-overlapping. I am worried, because BT Voyager's signal strength seems stronger in the road than our Linksys boxes with external antennas. I can't for one minute believe they are using anything other than the standard antennas. Andy :) From ged at jubileegroup.co.uk Thu Oct 27 10:50:50 2005 From: ged at jubileegroup.co.uk (G.W. Haywood) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 10:50:50 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: Hi there, On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Andy Gauton wrote: > Warrington Wireless celebrated it's 1yr anniversary of success. :) > Over a 12 month period ... only a couple of minor issues - solved by > router reboot, usually remotely using Telnet :) Telnet!???!!! For goodness' sake junk it and use SSH! > However, just as we were about to celebrate ... the network has been > experiencing some major problems ... started noticing serious bandwidth > issues ... recently 15k ... 900k, with the occasional 2MB+ > Went round the road with a laptop... VERY STRONG BT Voyager router > signal on Ch8 ... Figures to be released once testing has been done > over the next few days. > > Your thoughts please. It's not just a matter of telling the devices which other devices they should listen to, and which they should ignore, is it? There is still a clear line of sight between the antennae? Nobody put a new extension on their bathroom or anything? Other thoughts: 1. Set up something to measure your signal strengths continuously. See for example http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/radio/powerbudget.html which shows some snow on an antenna, and if you think that the leaves on trees won't matter see http://www.jubileegroup.co.uk/radio/tree_trimmings.gif which shows the result of trimming a cherry tree (twice, on July 24 and August 21). Also you'll see the effect of the sun shining on the black plastic box which contains the APs atop the mast in our installation - AP manufacturers don't seem to mention temperature coefficients much in their literature... Incidentally I'd expect you to see better results in cooler parts of the year, other things being as equal as possible. Which they won't be, of course. 2. Write down some numbers for all the component parts. For example "At 20 deg. C we have +14dB from AP number 1, its sensitivity is -85dB, the antenna is a 16dB omni, there is about a 10dB loss between the connector on the antenna and the connector on the AP, the free space loss between AP1 and AP2 is -82dB because it's a distance of xxx.x metres." 3. Write down some more numbers for signals received from each AP by the other APs - and while you're at it, for signals received from elsewhere. 4. Don't imagine that ANY of your numbers will be constant, except maybe for the speed of light in vacuo. 4. Given the collection of numbers, decide what you think should happen. 5. If it's not happening: 6. Check the equipment performance, losses in the cables, connectors etc. 7. Try changing the antenna polarization. 8. Try using more directional/better antennae (my personal favourite.) 9. http://www.zytrax.com/tech/wireless/intro.htm (just found it, looks useful). Let us know how you get on? 73, Ged. PS: Fill in the xxx above - that's a little test. From hick.w.manchester at gink.org Thu Oct 27 11:17:23 2005 From: hick.w.manchester at gink.org (gARetH baBB) Date: Thu, 27 Oct 2005 11:17:23 +0100 (BST) Subject: [manchesterwireless] Warrington Wireless - interference? In-Reply-To: <41414.212.248.237.101.1130406037.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> References: <31466.212.248.237.101.1130400813.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <37013.212.248.237.101.1130404125.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> <41414.212.248.237.101.1130406037.squirrel@mail.the-crow.co.uk> Message-ID: On Thu, 27 Oct 2005, Andy Gauton wrote: > Will Ch13 be far enough away from Ch11 to avoid interference? They aren't entirely overlap free, but it's going to be the best you're going to get I reckon if you have loads of consumer equipment (which usually ignores channels above 11 anyway) about. > However, BT Voyager in NetStumbler is reporting Ch8, but very strong > signal. So, either this is correct, or this is SuperG misreporting? If it's channel 8, it isn't Atheros SuperG in Turbo mode. Everything I can see about the BT Voyager says they probably use Broadcom anway. > The ideal solution would be to find BT Voyager neighbour and see if we can > change his/her channel to a non-overlapping. I have no idea about Broadcom's Afterburner mode. > I am worried, because BT Voyager's signal strength seems stronger in the > road than our Linksys boxes with external antennas. I can't for one minute > believe they are using anything other than the standard antennas. That depends on antennas and where you measure the signal - remember antennas don't increase power, they just focus it more. If they have a small stub antenna basically going splat, you are going to see more of its power nearby than an antenna which may be focusing its power in a more ... focused way.